Transcript

You're listening to Loretta Piazza, experienced school, principal, mentor, and coach, and together we're 'talking out of school'. You will hear from leaders who have lived and breathed so many experiences, agonized over decisions and have tossed and turned through countless sleepless nights. These are the people who will help you stay ahead of the game

 

Introduction

 Ask any principal what their number one job is and they will tell you it’s to keep their students safe.  In most schools, helping students to flourish is what they do best, but from time to time they fail.  And the reason for this is not because the principal has necessarily done something wrong.  It’s more about having to navigate through a system that is complex, process driven and gives everyone a hearing.  Today’s interview is with John Conway.

 

Interview

Loretta: John, welcome to Talking out of school.

John: Hello, Loretta, pleased to be here.

L: How long have you been…well, how long were you with the education department?

J: Oh, well, I was on a studentship four years at uni, starting in 1973. And I retired four years ago, February 2018, would have been my retirement date.

L: How long were you a principal for?

J: I was a principal for just over 20 years of that at two different schools.

L: What was some of the real highs around your time as a principal?

J: Well, the high for me was always working with kids. I was a bit unusual in that way. So I often took a class, which was fairly unusual in big schools. So absolutely. Because I always liked keeping in touch with what's going on, I think you can get a bit isolated as a principal. And it's always good to get on the coalface and see what's happening. Sometimes I get criticized by my staff for being too hands on. But you got to do the job your way. And that was my way.

L: Yeah, look, I think it's a great thing. If you can find, well, the time and the initiative and that incentive to work with the kids. I think there are a lot of rewards there. Because as principals, it's very easy to be removed from what's going on in the school, don't you think?

J: Absolutely. And for me, the the joy of the job was always the kids. Yeah, doing, and providing the best education outcomes for them. But the interpersonal relationships as well was always most important to me.

L: Speaking of the kids look, looking back at my time, I'd say I spent probably 80% of my time working with 20% of my kids, the naughty ones as well, unfortunately, and they were predominantly boys, but they were they were gorgeous kids. I just loved them. But they drove me insane. In your more recent years, as principal, what was that like?

J: Well, it was interesting, because I was retiring at the age of 60. My school that I'd been at for 17 years. And I'd actually was a bit naughty, as it turned out, Loretta, because, as you will know, if you leave the country, especially let the Regional Director know. And I had a staff So I had a staff member who got ill, just before she was supposed to take with two other staff members, 27 students to Italy over the holidays before I was retiring. They were term holidays, but they were away for two weeks. And I was the only one available that had actually been on the trip before. So I ended up going with 27 kids to Italy. And we're outside the Colosseum in Rome and my Senior Education Officer rang me and said, asked me whether I'd go to a school where the principal was on stress leave and look after it for a term. And I had to explain what, why why I was there with kids on a very strange time in Australia. But it wasn't a strange time in Italy. Anyway, I did fess up when I got back, I ended up at that school for another two and a half years. So until they were able to resolve well, until I left under, probably not the ideal circumstances and they were able to then advertise the job ongoing.

L: Okay. I’m interested in these unusual circumstances. Tell us a little bit about what was going on with the students at that school.

J:  Well, the school had a reputation I guess, of having difficult kids, but in fact, that's not what I found when I got there. In fact, my wife when she told one of her work colleagues, who, well, my wife works quite close to that school. So the school’s known to her her colleagues, you know, when Oh, why’s he gone there, and, and my wife said to me, he said, the kids are pretty good. You know, no different to any other schools. So it's certainly not what I found when I got there. However, it was a small school, it had a declining enrollment. And it was surrounded by what probably could be described as mega schools. And one of the unfortunate results of that was that when students were expelled from any of those schools around me, and they were pretty well four mega schools, certainly three anyway, where I was the next closest school, I'd get the expulsion. So you know, so I think in my first year there I got 10.

L: Ten students who had been expelled from other schools?

J:  Yes. So that created difficulties. Now, not all of those. In fact, some of those I guess were chastened by the experience and actually turned themselves around without help, without a lot of input from me. But one particular student, she'd been expelled for ….bip….a pretty serious situation. She was, was on a young side, only year seven.

L: Goodness….

J: indeed.  That wasn't my first year there, but it was my last year there. So we're talking 2017. So she'd started year seven at another school. And it lasted, I think two terms, and was a very, very difficult kid.

L: And obviously very troubled.

J: Very troubled kid. Yes. Anyway, probably don't want to go into the family circumstances. But yes, she was troubled. And anyway, she, she came to us. We were fortunate having a doctors in school program. So we had a mental health assessment done and organized, we got got her free psychology appointments, which is sort of more than the department could offer that kid. So we had a visiting psychologist that worked privately as well as one the Department provided and we set up those counselling sessions, she refused to attend and continued on her merry way, including ………………(bip)……………………..first week. That's not what I expelled for. But the issue came up where she somehow had gotten the phone number of one of one of our students in year seven, who was…..(bip)……and she got her phone number and started harassing her at home. Serious impact on this particular student who was probably less capable of dealing with it than any other student, but I think any student, even without the disability might have struggled with what was happening. So anyway, she'd been suspended a number of times for violence, we'd had the support meetings. She refused the sort of the counselling. And in the end, I did make a decision after that, I would expel her. Anyway, it went to an appeal, the father took it to an appeal. And the decision was overturned on the basis that we hadn't provided enough support. My question was, well, what did you expect me to do? Knock her over the head and drag her into the psychologists office, which clearly I couldn't do and didn't want to. The system really couldn't cope with this student, we'd offered her alternative placements at some of the alternative school she refused to attend, dad wouldn't push the issue with her basically let her call all the shots. So when I received the call on a Friday afternoon, in February, telling me that the student had appealed, the decision had been overturned, I informed the person who rang me who was pretty high up person in the department, that I would be -that was 3.30- I said, I'll be finishing work at 4.30 today. I'm resigning as today. I'll spend the next hour writing handover notes for the assistant principal and I walked out at 4.30.

L: Never to return.

J: Never to return.

L: Do you regret that?

J: No, I don't regret it. I really don't believe that I could have provided a safe environment, which is what I've would what it was what the reason I expelled it. Because I couldn't guarantee, I couldn't even be confident, much less guarantee that I could protect the safety of the other students in the school. She needed another setting, not a mainstream secondary school. Unfortunately, she refused to attempt those or even try them out. And as it turned out, she never attended class ever again. She returned to the school. And the assistant principal who became acting for a little while, actually had to employ a full time minder for her because she wouldn't go to class. She just walked around the school causing havoc. Dad later said to the assistant principal, acting principal, that he regretted appealing the decision because clearly, I didn't have, had a negative effect rather than a positive effect on it. So there are the circumstances.  I don't regret it. I had to look, I have to say Loretta, I'm not a disgruntled principal. I enjoyed every day in the job. I found it very rewarding. But sometimes you got to stand on your principles. And that was a principle, an LE principal, that I wasn't prepared to compromise on.

L: From experience, why do parents or carers appeal these decisions?

J: Generally, my experience is that they, they usually have had an issue with authority of some description, whether it be government or schools or whatever. And their first response is an adversarial one not not a cooperative one. That's the main problem. And I, well, I'm pretty confident having talked to the Father in particular on several occasions that that was probably the issue. He just wanted to fight city hall, to use an American term.

L: Well, unfortunately, though, he was successful because the appeal was upheld.

J: He was unfortunately successful, not because the appeal was upheld, but because it wasn't the best outcome for his daughter. She never attended a class again, ever. I believe she dropped out of school, though. I don't know that for certain. But I know at that school, she never attended a class again.

L: Okay, so what was the follow up from the department after you left?

J: Well, there was no follow up for quite a while. And then I received a call from the minister's office, asking me whether I would be prepared to be interviewed regarding the circumstances, by somebody, the department, which I did, I was interviewed for probably nearly two hours, and I can't, unfortunately, I can't remember the person's name. But there was, you know, when, when a bureaucrat fairly high up in the department, and said all about? Well, I wanted to know, they actually wanted some feedback. So it was, it was a genuine, a genuine attempt to understand the problem. And I said, Look, basically, that they, I said, the current system is this, we we haven't got the ability to deal with all of these kids that are really serious ones, the resources required are enormous to deal with a student like that, not not just within the school, but within the wider education system. I said, clearly, you can't have a system where a principal makes a decision, which is not subject to appeal. That's not the issue, all I could do is give them the written report, which I'd already done. When, of course, when you expel a student, you have to write a comprehensive report, you supply that, and the parent goes along to this board that no one knows who sits on it. And he can say anything. I said, so clearly, that is not a good system where you know, that, that that sort of thing can happen. So I said, my suggestion is that the principal should be able to be present and question and be held accountable for the decision, but should be able to come to that that decision making body and present the case, not just a written, written report that, you know, the parent can say anything they like unchallenged. And that's what happened, I believe when the ministerial order came out, although it wasn't in the department at the time, but I believe that was changed.

L: Yes, ministerial order 1125. Minister Merlino signed it on the 9th May 2018. And there were a number of changes in that one of the significant changes was the introduction of the RASP- the regional approved support person. Now, you probably would have assisted and worked with other principals during an expulsion process. But the RASP ensured that it was no longer a principal but it was somebody from the region.  Could be a psychologist, could be a speech therapist, it could be a bureaucrat, and it could be somebody with no knowledge of what goes on in schools. That that was one of the biggest changes and is still in place today.

J: Yeah, well, as I said, I wasn't in the department. So I don't know what the changes are other than what I've been told by people who still work in the in the system. But look, I've never had any problems with the support person, the RASP, the principal who attended the support meetings, I've never had any issue with any principal that I ever asked to be on a on a panel and that particular principal was at another secondary school a fair way away had no axe to grind or had no interest in the outcome. So I always tried to find a RASP that was, you know, wasn't going to get the kid if if they were expelled for example, which would create a conflict of interest. So I had a principal that came and supported me or supported the kid as an independent person to make sure the process was followed, that the decision making was a fair outcome and that they certainly gave me some advice you know, about processing and, and what sort of things should be considered in the in the decision making, but I never had any problem with those principals who sat on those support with those support meetings with the parents, etc. So I never had any problem at all. So I'm I don't know, what the result of having a non person, a person who doesn't work in a school directly as the RASP. I suppose I suspected some, I suspect it's, you know, all care and no responsibility.

L: Because, yeah, unfortunately, unfortunately, the fact that today's RASP often doesn't have a great knowledge of the workings of a school, especially what principals do and all the supports have put in place. And there's something like a 42 checkboxes that a principal needs to tick. And there are behavior review meetings, which would have taken place prior to 2018. Anyway, but it just seems that principals are jumping through hoops. And each hoop is bigger than the than the previous one. And I think the other side of that, though, is if there is an appeal, there's a good chance that the appeal will not be upheld, because principals have had to work through 42 checkboxes.

J:  can't remember how many checkboxes we had to work through prior to the ministerial order, but it was still a substantial list of and I used to, in fact, have that checklist in front of me when we when we had such a meeting. And I'd say, now we've got to do this, the children used to be the student had to have the opportunity to be heard, the parent had an opportunity to be heard. There was a there was a checklist, but I don't think it was 42 pages, or 42 checks long. But I always had that next to me when to make sure that I was following the process. When I was having those meetings and and then I'd ask the principal RASP as they were then. Is there anything that I've overlooked or forgotten? Or just to just to double check myself that I hadn't skipped over anything that I should have? I should have done? So I didn't find the process too cumbersome. But I mean, it's obviously unpleasant. I mean, you're dealing with kids in very difficult circumstances, and parents who are often angry and you know, feel like the world's against them. And so it's not, it's not a pleasant thing. And I always tried to conduct the meetings, you know, in that, well, what's best for this student? What's the best outcome we're going to get? And what what do we want to achieve? You know, and sometimes, you know, not in this particular, Well, the parent, the father really didn't fight very hard they did in the actual meeting before the child was expelled. He wasn't belligerent or aggressive or anything like that. But I've certainly had parents who with not just with expulsion, support meetings, but just generally the support meetings you have ongoing with these students who are in difficulty. All they want to do is fight you, you know, and I've had you know, there's been there's some funny stories over the years, you know, when I was still at my not at the last school, the previous one had a student who was in trouble. And we had number of support meetings, and we didn't get to expulsion, because he's dead, pulled him out and put him in another school. I didn't ask him to do and I didn't want him to do it actually, I thought we could work with this kid. And I'm sitting there at 6pm one night, the cleaners were just about to lock up. And the dad comes in and sits down and wants me wants me to give him advice about what he can do about the problem with this kid.  Mate, you're the one who took him away. Yeah, and I learned some there are some funny stories around about. Yeah, you know, but look, parents are frustrated too. I mean, I was lucky with three boys and they all, you know, they sailed through life and school.

L: Compared to what you went through.

J: Exactly. So it's, but you know, parents are under pressure too and they and they often get to their wit's end. But unfortunately I've got a fight city hall often gets in the way of what's the best outcome.

L: You don't take this approach to expel a student because you feel like it or because you don't like the student. Generally you've put hours and hours and days and weeks and possibly even years into supporting these kids.

J: Yeah, this one was very unusual because she was just so out of control, you know, I mean

….bip…you know, and that she actually did it at my school on the first week. She was there so didn't expel for the same thing she was expelled for the previous school you know. We continued to work with her and and whatever but you know, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make a drink. You know, mental health plan, refuses to go to a psychologist, dad won't push the issue. Give a give her some alternative settings that, you know, she might look at, which might suit her better.

L: Yeah. And the other side to all of that is, what about all the other kids who are affected? The staff who are affected? And who go to you and say, John, what are you going to do about this?

J: And the problem is to the state education system is, takes all comers. And my, not the school I finished at, but the school I was a principal at for 17 years, we had 390 kids when I went there, and 44 in year seven, it had a reputation of not having a very stable learning environment. I'd like to say I'm a very smart bloke, but I'm not. I just got the basics right, what's acceptable, what's not acceptable. And, you know, I built that school up to nearly 1000 kids before I retired. And that wasn't rocket science. It was just what the parents want from a school? Parents want a stable, safe environment for the kids to go to school, where they're going to be happy. That's what they want. So if you take away, you know, I mean, why do parents and I often say this to people who send their kids to Catholic or private schools, do you think you're getting better teachers? Because you're not to Catholic or private schools. You know, when Jeff Kennett did all those redundancies years ago, I was at Reservoir and I was part of the principal team there and we didn't offer those redundancies to our top teachers, they were good average teachers, you know, but they weren't out high flyer in superstars. And those, those staff that took the redundancies got jobs at Carey and, you know, some of the top private schools that have got the reputations, so they don’t have a better staff, but what they do have is the ability to control their cohort. And that's why parents a lot of parents that send their kids to the private system, because they think they're getting, well, they might think they're getting better teachers, but they are they do know that they're, you know, that schools have the ability to not have their kids in a dangerous situation because of other kids. They can. And they do.

L: You know, we've got a lot of young and inexperienced principals. And I sort of think, I wonder if they realise some of the challenges that face them in in this work today? What would your advice be to them around suspensions, expulsions, those sorts of things that can often be an issue for a principal? If you don't get it right? What would your advice to them be?

J: Well, I think it's probably as you pointed out, at the beginning, it is different in secondary school than primary school. When kids get to secondary school, they're on the way to adulthood. And adulthood is really being responsible and accountable for behavior. We know that, you know, for example, the criminal ae has just been put up from I think, 10 to 12?  At what stage do you keep cutting slack, cutting slack, cutting slack for kids who are really off the rails and where there's not a real consequence. That's the issue. And it probably varies for every kid. But I don't think, and I'll go back to that kid who, on the first day at the school I was at for 17 years, he was whipping other students with a branch in the corridors as I went down at recess. I mean, that's what he was doing. And some kid was gonna kill him if I hadn't got there on time, who was doing the favours, who did him the favours, you know, I made him accountable. And I told him, you step over the line again, and I'm going to expel you. And he never did. Because somebody drew a line in the sand. Now, it doesn't always work. You know, some kids will step over the line, and they'll go back, it'd be very interesting to see. If I was if I was trying to solve the problem. I would be saying, well, what, what's the outcome for those kids who are expelled? What is it, and then what resources are put in by the department to actually fix that problem, because that those, those kids need a lot of resource-intensive work to really turn them around. So my advice is, look, you've got to, you got to draw a line in the sand somewhere that says, if you want to come to this school, we value a safe learning environment, an ordered learning environment. And you really need to know that if you can't do that there is a bottom line somewhere. Now to answer your question, okay, what would my advice to young principals be? First of all don't get worn down by the negative stuff Because it's a great job. Trust me. Being a principal is a great job. And if you only ever get bogged down into the negative, you'll lose sight of that, which is why I always got involved with kids a lot. Because that was a big buzz. I mean, the buzz is the kids and and the 90 probably 95% of them that are great people are gonna grow up into great people, and you really enjoy their company. So focus on that as well don't just get bogged down in the negative. And the thing about difficult kids is, sometimes there isn't a solution, you can't fix everybody, all you can do is your best. And if you're really focused on the well being of the kid, most of the time, you'll get the best outcome possible. It might not be a perfect outcome, but it will be it'll be the best you can do. And and it's possible to do. So. Yeah, look at that. If you want to know, did I regret leaving the job? The only thing I regretted about leaving the job was the contact with the kids. I missed the kids. But I've sort of got my fix now, of that on. I am. As you probably now I'm playing a brass band. I conduct a junior band at Darebin brass, teach a number of kids mostly online over COVID. But but that's the only thing I really regret about leaving, I mean, was, you know, 63 I think 63 Just turned 63 when I when I left and I had my time. And to be perfectly honest, you can't do it forever. You can't keep working a 55 hour week. And that's pretty well what I think most principals do. You can't do it forever. I mean, you get to a stage physically where it just, it knocks you about. But mentally, mentally I love the job, you know. But you do get more and more exhausted, you know, the weekend, you're not much good for anything. So I'm happy being a peasant farmer Loretta, growing the vegetables growing..

L: I'm sure there's nothing pleasant about you….

J: Nice of you to say so but anyway.

L: I reckon this is a really, really great time to, to say thank you. And it's a very positive end to this great conversation. Look, I'm I'm sorry for you that your career finished the way it did. But as you say, if you don't dwell on the negatives, and you look at the positives, you've got far more positives, and you've achieved so many really, really good things. That's really that's important, don't you think?

J: Oh, yeah, look, I'm I'm very happy with my career. Couldn't.. if I had to do it all again, if I had to, you know, 22 where it was when I started teaching and sign up for this. I would have signed. Yeah. So it's a great job.

L: Well, John, thank you very much. I wish you all the best and happy banding. Yes, and trumpeting and doing all those things and your farming, which sounds absolutely wonderful. So wishing you all the best.

J: No worries. It's a pleasure. Thank you.

 

Thanks for listening to this latest episode of talking out of school, where we cover topics and dilemmas associated with the ups and downs, and even the downright curious of the school leaders job. Want to know more then visit me at shapingleaders.com.au

But for now here’s to staying ahead of the game.

 

 

 

 

According to Jim Knight, coaching is for professionals who think for a living.  Growth Coaching International Executive Director, Chris Munro, explains how coaching is about relationships and conversations, fuelled by understanding the nuances within the different layers.  Coaching and mentoring sit on a continuum, and by asking the ever-important question 'how do I need to be for this person right now' determines the coaching stance and how much of me is needed at this time.

#5 Chris Munro

You're listening to Loretta Piazza, experienced school, principal, mentor, and coach, and together we're 'talking out of school'. You will hear from leaders who have lived and breathed so many experiences, agonized over decisions and have tossed and turned through countless sleepless nights. These are the people who will help you stay ahead of the game.

You're listening to Loretta Piazza, experienced school principal, mentor, and coach, and together we're talking out of school. You will hear from leaders who have lived and breathed so many experiences, agonized over decisions and have tossed and turned through countless sleepless nights. These are the people who will help you stay ahead of the game.

Introduction

When I first started this series on coaching and mentoring in schools, I was absolutely certain that they are two totally different things, but my thinking has evolved and it's morphed into doing away with labels and seeing coaching and mentoring more as a practice, where it's about giving more of me or less of me, depending on what is needed. The person who has helped me come to terms with this realisation is Chris Munro, Executive Director at Growth Coaching International.

Interview with Chris Munro

Loretta Piazza: Hello, Chris, welcome to talking out of school.

Chris Munro: Hi Loretta. Thanks. Thanks for having me.

L: Uh, could you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and your background?

C: Okay, I'll give you the short, the short hand version. So the accent tells a story in itself. So I'm Scottish. I'm from Glasgow originally. I trained in Glasgow as a secondary teacher and qualified 1992. Um, so nearly 30 years ago now, uh, and a secondary design technique teacher. It was my subject passion that drew me into teaching, uh, and then ended up teaching and, and living up in the far northeast of Scotland, in Aberdeen and becoming a design technology teacher up there, head of the department, various other kind of leadership roles up there and involvement with the Scottish Qualifications Authority. And through that time developed a real interest in leadership and then, uh, the professional development of my colleagues, that was a lot of student teachers and things. And then I got a chance to go to Aberdeen university and be a teaching fellow there, which meant I was doing my subject thing again, but training teachers. But at that point started to get a much, much broader, conversational experience, if you want to call it that. I had a broader range of conversational contexts and I look back now and I think I wish I had known then what I know now. Coaching wasn't in the education landscape, but the better conversations were more coach-like, and the ones that didn't go so well, what probably, but too much for me, but too much status, all the things that you know happened there. So when I came to Australia nearly 11 years ago now, and I should say I'm an Australian citizen, got my passport. Not been allowed to go anywhere with it yet, but I've got it. What's in, in schools here and government and independent schools, and that's when coaching came on the horizon. So then was responsible for developing coaching models in schools. Leading professional learning, that was my leadership position for professional learning in those schools. And then got the chance, I think it's four or five years ago now, to come and work for GCI. And I'm the executive director with GCI, which means I look after the operations of the company. Well, internationally and now globally.

L: Wow. Well, to me that makes you sound like quite an expert and just the right person to be asking all these questions. Sort of interested in coaching and mentoring because that comes up a fair bit. Can you define coaching what it is and what it isn’t?

C: That's a good way of putting it. What is it? And what isn't it? Um, I mean, I could give you a textbook definition, but I won't read the definition out here. I suppose for me the essence of, of coaching in schools and I think we need to see that, uh, and, and in an education context, we think it is slightly different from life coaching or, you know, pick your own adventure, in terms of school and system priorities. But within that, um, I position coaching as a professional learning service. I think the word service is important. Our form of professional learning in itself and the catalyst for other forms of professional learning. I think it's fundamentally about bringing out the best in people. And when, when the work that teachers do is probably some of the most complex work in any profession every day. Uh, how do you help teachers be the best teachers they can be? Every lesson every day, you know, and that's a challenge. That's maybe a never-ending journey, but coaching has a way of helping people get better at doing what they do and in schools it's about helping educators get better at doing and leaders get better at doing what they do and it's that that provides that support of supportive accountability for any individual who's pursuing what they want to pursue. And it provides a helpful, critical, reflective lens. So we know reflective practice is really hard to do on your own. Sounds grand but a coach provides a really valuable service there and helping shine a light on your work can help present lenses for your work. So I see it as in one sentence a thinking service for professionals who, and I'm going to paraphrase from Jim Knight here, professionals who think for a living. I think educators fundamentally think for living. Um, and this is helping us think with more clarity and more proper.

L: A person doesn't just go up to you, Chris and say, I want to be coached or I want to be mentored. I imagine they, they go to you because they've got a dilemma or they seek a solution or they want advice. How do you know then what approach to take with this person?

C: Okay. So, yeah, you're right. They don't often come up and say, can you coach? Or they sometimes do, can you coach me? Can you mentor me? And I think one of the things there is that it’s a sign they have a notion of what coaching and mentoring may be. So sometimes people will solicit a particular service from you. So they may come to you knowing that you are a super experienced principal and say, look, I'm new in the job. Can you mentor me? Because they understand that mentoring is a more knowledgeable experienced other apprentice, novice kind of thing, master apprentice, that kind of thing. Um, and they know you've been there, done it and got the t-shirt, you know. So they understand that's what so they'll come and say, I expect you to give me some of your advice, some of your wisdom. If they come and say, coach me, I think it's probably less well understood. I think they probably, I don't know what that, they think sports coaching that I think train me, train me in how to be like you, train me how to be a principal. Um, so it's less well understood. So I think for me, uh, if you came and said to me, I've got this dilemma, Chris, as a school leader, or as what I do now as a coach, I would be helping you to, first of all, make sense of what it is you want instead of this dilemma that you have just now. So that's a solution focused coaching approach. Spend more time on what you want rather than what you don't want, but then I need to discern how do I need to be for this person right now? So you come and ask me to coach you or mentor you or say, can you help me, Chris? I understand you help people think about things so can you help me? And you might know a thing or two as well. I've got to discern what you need. I've also got to discern what you've already got, and that might mean I'm taking more of a mentoring stance or a mentoring….you may call it mentoring. You may recognize that the mentoring, and sometimes when you need some of me, but actually a lot of the time I'll be taking a more coaching or coach like stance, uh, what I'm really creating a space for you to think and make sense and reach greater clarity. And so in that sense, sometimes the terms or the labels and the badge I wear don’t matter.  I'm delving really deep in some stuff here, but I think that question raises it for me. You come and say help me Chris. And I'm a middle leader. Let's see. I was my head of department when I was a design technology teacher. Somebody comes, often with a complaint or a whinge and says, oh, that class was terrible. In that moment I've got to discern how I need to be. And that's whether I say, you know, should we have some coaching sessions and do it formally, or in the moment, do I take a coaching stance and ask a few more clarifying questions before I jump in with my powers of wisdom, because I understand that that's going to be more empowering for them. So I think there's two things I'm giving you a big, long rambling answer to your question Loretta. Um, I think that one is about understanding of the terms. So do you and I both understand what those terms mean? And the second one is, uh, first of all, do you know what you need and what's good for you? Or do you just happen to know that label? And actually, am I the person who has that expertise in helping? And expertise in helping means I understand what those terms mean and that you might need?

L: Okay. It’s not necessary…it's not necessarily a label and it's recognizing what help I need. So how does that play out in a school environment? What does it look like?

C: What does that look like? Um, so first thing there is role clarity, but sometimes when we talk about role clarity, we think, well, my role as you probably had people in your school, who part of the role was to be, to mentor others. So they had mentoring as one of the points in the role description. It may be new grads, new graduate teachers, uh, and, or in a secondary or the head of department. So you get the new grad in your department. You're expected to mentor them. I was expected to mentor people before I ever had any mentoring training, because it's just the label, you know? And the same happens with coaching. Sometimes you may have instructional coaches. You may, in Victoria, you may have learning specialists who are effectively instructional coaches and various other roles. Yeah. So, um, the way it plays out is actually, first of all, understanding those, those terms helps because then someone who says, do you want to be coached? Do you want to be mentored? What do you need from me here? You've got a common language. I think that's one of the things. And when that's not there, one of the first things people need to grapple with is that I'm hesitant to use role clarity again, because I think it's actually a more terminology clarity and your, whatever you decide to call it in you school, you all understand what it means. And you know what to expect from me when you come at me for help. And I'm, I'm almost contracting that with you the way we would in one-on-one coaching. So I think that's important in schools. When that's absent that sometimes causes confusion, um, that all these different forms of coaching going on all these different terms flying around or the principal makes it worse by saying we're all coaches now, we’re all going to coach each other, you know, and now you're not, uh, but you've all got more conversational intelligence. So you've all got more of a conversational framework that's consistent. So I think that's one of the things. There's in the difference, the last part of that sounds that I suppose, is there's then a difference between formal mentoring and formal coaching, where you're designated as my coach or my mentor. And we go through quite a time-bound formalized series of conversations. So, if you enlist me to do a coaching cycle with you on leadership coaching, like one of the ones we do with the Victorian department, for example, you'll get me for between six and eight sessions, an hour each, and in that time, we will have some goals that you want to address and you know, that I'm partnering with you to work through that. And do you know that I'm partnering with you to work through that? Whether I'm called a coach or a mentor doesn't really matter because you might need some of me sometimes and not a lot of me at other times. But in a school, there’s obviously timetables, there's parameters around that, there’s resourcing around that. So there's some kind of, it's not a compromise, but we need to think about that as a, as a resourced thing when it's formal. But then the other side of it is what we call a coaching approach or a coaching stance. And that means when somebody comes, as I'm sure you had many times, knocks on your door or didn't even knock, they just barge in, on your door and your office. And as they're saying, have you got a minute, uh, they are starting to tell you what the problem is before you've even said yes or no. And I've only got seven minutes because I'm going to another meeting then, just let it go. In that moment again how do you show up in that conversation? So what's your mode of operation? What you're listening for? What questions have you got in your repertoire? What's your intent in the conversation? Do they need you just to listen and watch cause you're not doing either coaching or mentoring. Do they need help thinking that needs some of your advice? You're doing all of that in that moment when you're taking a coaching stance as a leader. So I think that's the less formal way. You're not going to say, hang on a minute, stop talking. Let me get my notepad. Let's sit at the desk and let's do the coaching, you know? So I think there's probably more of that in schools than there's formal coaching and it's helpful too, to have that conversation in the school, I think, with your staff in terms of what do we want to see around here in terms of the kinds of conversations we have. For me, this is essentially how we talk around here and what we talk about that that's the essence of it. And there's different modes of that, if that makes sense.

L: I don’t know if just anybody could do that role. What do you think? Well, you know, in that split second, you need to make a decision. Am I just listening or do I need to be asking some questions? I've only got seven minutes.

C: That's a great, that's a great provocation, a really good one. Um, I, if you push me for an answer, I'd say it’s not, and not everybody can do that. Um, I think there's a higher level of emotional intelligence required and that means that it's an, and we've got to remember the emotional intelligence fluctuates minute by minute, day by day. So it doesn't mean you're an emotionally intelligent person or not. It means your levels will change. And I think there's a self-awareness and self-management required in that moment. Because we are all serial advice givers. Yep. We’re all fixers. So are your, your gut reaction is telling you to tell them what the, what you think or to rescue them, and understanding, and that's something everybody can learn to get better at to manage that Advice Monster, Michael Bungay Stanier would call it. You've got this advice monster on your shoulder saying, I know what they need to do. Just tell him. And he has a mantra where he says, you know, your advice, isn't as good as you think it is. So have that up above your door as they come into your office. My advice is not as good as I think it is. Hold that, park it until it's absolutely needed. So I think it’s a big part of that emotional intelligence and self-awareness and awareness of others that is a harder thing to teach people. Whereas the conversational frameworks, that repertoire of more helpful questions than the ones we might normally ask, uh, the way we listen, and tuning in to listening. I think everybody can get better at that and learn that. You can coach people on their emotional intelligence. You can coach people on that awareness, but it's harder. You know, but I think there are certain things that you can get everybody or put anything at a stronger level. They often underpin us, as a leader is your beliefs about the teachers you work with. You are your beliefs and values about how we should treat and teachers and, and professionalism and what that means. And if you really don't believe that your colleagues have the capacity to get better at doing what they do, and that that's just that moaning person coming to complain about me again, the bad news is that's going to show up in your conversation at some stage, isn't it? And it's going to influence the dynamic.

L: And if you're coaching people or working with people in your own environment, there's that strong possibility that you have these preconceived ideas about these people and, and, and your ability and their ability. I'm really interested in an earlier comment you made about a coaching approach. So does that sit on some sort of a continuum?

C: It does. It does. And I've written a little bit about that. Um, and, and there's, there's an article that I can send to you actually, that you can share if you like. Um, it, it's a concept that we've been talking about for quite a long time. When we started doing this kind of training and built on, on Christian van Nuremburg’s work our global director, Professor Christian van Nuremburg I should say, giving him his full title. He wrote a book in 2012 called coaching in education. And that he had a kind of a continuum that talked about, uh, directive conversations and non-directive conversations. Now that's evolved in a managed way over quite a number of years, and he's actually working on that some more just now. Um, but I've grappled with that for quite a while, uh, and developed to end to this concept of, it's not, when we say directive or non-directive, those are quite finite pejorative terms. It's like one or the other. It creates a dichotomy between mentoring and coaching. That isn't actually there in reality, based on what I've said already. So the concept of a continuum, this is a podcast, so you won't see me swing from side to side here, but as I talk about it, I'm all, I cannot stop myself from moving from side to side, because for me in my head, I'm shifting stance along that continuum, do I need to be more directive and more directive doesn't mean giving directions and doing the leadership director. If there would have been things as a principal that were mandated, you know, mandatory reporting, policies, you have to turn up in time for your first class. You can't choose to come in at 10 o'clock because you're not a morning person. You know, all those things that you've got to say, no, I need to tell you that's not on and it needs to change. When we're talking about professional learning conversations, growth-orientated conversations, there is a continuum there, where you, either need more of me that's the more directive and more of my voice, more of my experience, expertise, wisdom, or they need much less and often they need less than we think. They don't really need as much as you think they do. So stay in at that less directive end means you're adopting what we may call a more facilitative stance. You're there to hold a space for them to think you're there to service their thinking and hold them to action. When you go to the more directive end, so that more directive and less directive is more helpful, is less finite. Then I'm just very tactically and tactfully, tactically and tactfully, injecting a bit of my knowledge about my expertise, because I detect that they might need it. But even when I do that, I'm not saying, well, here's what I think you should do. Here's what I think you should do as advice giving. And it's very direct. What could say as well, would you like some suggestions from me? And you're not going to say no, thanks. You're going to say, yes, please, I thought you'd never ask ask and I'll say, well, what I've seen, what follows in the past as this and, uh, and my experience working with other teachers, here's what I've seen from other leaders, here's what I've seen. How does that sound to you? How would that look in your context? And when they start going, oh yeah, well, yeah, maybe that would work then maybe I could, all of a sudden I'm backing away to the facilitative end again. And it's actually now one of the options bobbing around that they’re shaping that's, that's offering suggestions, that's sharing options. And to me, the subtlety of that language is important because that's different from giving advice. That's not as definite. So I think the key skill for me, that's become clear and an effective….let me call it someone who's effective at holding a helpful professional learning conversations. So I'm not using coaching and mentoring. That continuum goes from less of me to more of me, less directive to more directive, of more facilitative, more advocacy at the other end, the support was, and in the middle somewhere, that's kind of that balance of inquiry and advocacy. I know some stuff that might be useful, but when I raise it with you, I'm doing it very provisionally and tentatively. So you're always in the driving seat. As soon as I take you out of the driving seat well, it's me, that's got responsibility then I want to keep it with you. So I think that the nuance of that and the subtlety of that shift is tricky for beginners to wrap their heads around. And you've been a coach and trainer and things and you know that that's something you grapple with right in the first half an hour, this mentoring coaching thing that's always joined. What, what, what does that mean? What's the difference? And you get people say, oh, that's all helpful, but the way you've just described it, um, I thought I was a mentor, but I'm doing what you just call coaching. And you've got an equal number who say I was called a mentor, but I'm actually doing more of what looks like coaching and the answer to that is, well, are you seeing the signs that you're actually been helpful to the people that you're working with and what is it you're seeing? Well, actually, just squirt out the name on your badge and call it wherever you like, you know, professional helper. I think that's a very good term, but yeah, like that's kind of where I’m at with that thinking. And I think that the key point that is the skills of an effective mentor and I'm doing mentor training there as well with different groups, the skills that you need to be an effective mentor, the way of being, you need to be an effective mentor aren’t very different. I'd say probably the only difference has been able to explain things clearly because there's an expectation of a mentor or an instructional coach that you can share your knowledge in a respectful way, in a clear way. I think that's the only, I'm still grappling with it, but I think that's the only additional scale I would add. That would be different from a full on executive coach or a leadership coach at the other non facilitative end. The skills and way of being are I think the same in our schools.

L: We've got a lot of principals who are accredited coaches, or they think they are, and they're doing coaching. I can, look I’m thinking to my own experiences, um, where I have coached some of my own staff and I just keep getting this feeling that they're doing it because they might be a little bit afraid to say to me, oh no, we're not going to, you know, we don't want to be involved in this. How does the principal get around that?

C: These are big questions. Um, so what you're talking about that as leader as coach, or, or actually it's not just any leader or a middle leader, it's the leader, it's the boss. Um, and no matter how flat you want your hierarchy to be, no how, no matter how distributed you want your leadership to be, ultimately, the buck stops with you as the principal. Uh, ultimately, and I said this in a workshop recently, you know, you can hire or fire, and a principal came straight back to me in the workshop with, I darn well wish I could hire and fire. I don't have that power. But you know what, you know what I mean? You've got a status, a perceived or actual status difference between you and anyone below you in the organisation if you like. What that means is you almost need to work extra hard to mitigate for that. It's on you, you can't, and actually, you know, you've been there and done it to say, trust me, I'm your coach for the next half an hour. Not your, not your boss. Doesn't really make people go okay, then I'll tell you my deepest, darkest secrets.  Hmm. And the thinking or wait and see with us feels like, you know, it's, it, there's a whole lot of trust and relational trust that underpins that. And I actually think you might never get that complete trust and transparency because you're the boss. There's a point you can get to and you could certainly have much, much more productive, empowering conversations with your colleagues and with your teams. And a great example is performance development conversations. Yeah, performance development review each year. A number of principals who I have  spoken to said, yeah, I said, what do you want it to look like? I want to see teachers bounce through the door and say, look Loretta, look what I've done. I've done this. And I've worked with a coach and this is what the students did. And here's the evidence. And I said, well, what does it look like now? And they say, well, they just come in and tell me what I think they think I want to hear. It’s just kind of passive compliance. They go through it and we tick the box we sign them off, and that's set for another year. Phew! What you really want is a post of productive dialogue about the practice. And I think the main barrier here, there's a few barriers. There's one about how it's positioned in the system and the people work and all of that. But I think another barrier, it is actually that perceived status and psychological safety might sound too heavy and it's kind of misused sometimes, but do they feel that they can genuinely open up to you and be vulnerable about the practice and you might feel as a, why not? I really won’t judge them, but they've still always gone. They're always going to have that guardiness. So being someone's line manager and trying to be their coach is actually quite a challenge in terms of the boundaries. You can do it if your name it up upfront. And that's one of the pieces of advice is actually to name that tension right at the get-go so, you know, you know, in executive coaching we'll talk about contracting and what to expect from me. What, what, why wouldn't you do that when you're trying to adopt that stance with your colleagues and name it, especially if it's in that kind of performance development conversations? Um, and the other option as well, they may be doing your coaching, but maybe you're not the right person to do it because that is getting in the way. And you mentioned the connect, background and the context as well. A coachee said to me once, I'm really struggling with corporate memory, that was the phrase she used. And I said, told her, I hadn't heard that term before. Tell me more about corporate memory. And she said, it's like everybody in the school remembers all my past mistakes because they used to be farther down the food chain. She said that she used to be a classroom teacher, a year level head or whatever. And now, I'm an AP. Ah, I'm trying to counter that. I've changed. I've moved on in my, all my colleagues who saw my mistakes before. And so that I thought that almost you're almost too close to it then. So there's some people she couldn't coach because that would get in the way. So I think that it's a case by case thing, but what we'll see is that whole leader as coach stance or coaching as a way of leading, we need to be careful we don't say I'm going to coach you, but actually acknowledging that that informal coaching approach is a really powerful way of empowering people, giving them voice and actually helping them have agency. And I think if we name that up with our staff as well, they realize you're not just playing mind games with them and trying to get them to do more work. You've actually got their best, best interests at heart and the interest of the students. So I think there's a lot in that, that the, what I've just said is probably what I would like principals to be saying to their staff, about what we're trying to do it right here.

L: You know, a principal wanting to implement coaching or a coaching approach in their school. What are the do's and don'ts?

C: Uh, you’re pushing a coach to give you a finite answer here, which is always a challenge. Do's and don'ts rules. Um, I think that are some things we've learned that coaching cultures and that whole coaching implementation thing has been a passion of mine for a while. I think one of the do’s is actually you have to walk the talk. Uh, so, uh, you know, if this is coming from a leadership level, which is often where it starts; it's very rare for the classroom teacher to start a coaching project and the school, um, I think there needs to be public endorsement. Uh, I think there definitely needs to be possibly a champion or team of champions who aren't necessarily the boss or the senior leadership team, because you know how busy you get and with all the best will in the world, you see the good intentions you don't get the time or do it justice. So, when we see it work really well it's where there's someone else who is mandated to champion this as a way of working. That's one thing. Um, and I think that's a really important one. It doesn't have to be there at the start, but at some point to make it run, it has to stay there. In one of my schools I worked in, it took quite a number of years to get that to happen, but we were still beavering away in the meantime, in the middle. So we influenced in the middle out in a big secondary school. It's a lot easier to have it come straight from the top first. And there's two other, there's two other do’s, I think definitely. Um, is there, I suppose the don'ts sit the flip side of all of these aren't they? Um, one is around that clarity that we've talked about here. Clarity of intent. So what is this really about? But you can stand up in front of staff and make a sales pitch and say, and people like you who've done training, there’s a danger you go back to school and become an evangelist for coaching. So you go running back to your staff and say, I've seen the light, I've been in this coaching conversation, this coaching course. Trust me, this is what you need, guys, it’s good for you. Take your medicine. And you've got all your staff sitting there with their arms folded, going, now, here we go again, Loretta’s off on one of those again, what she picked up this time? Don't let her go on any more courses. She keeps coming back with these bright ideas. So I think one of the key things… I learned the hard way. That’s what I did in my school. And I got a deafening silence, not resistance. They didn't stand up towards me, funnily enough. So the key thing that is first of all, start with who does volunteer. So start with that coalition of the willing. You have to start there and get some champions. If you can get a couple of cynics in there, that really helps because they become the evangelists. But the other thing is let them experience it. I didn't do that soon enough when I started doing lesson school. I talked about it, but talking about it, it's not the same as experiencing it. And once they saw a demonstration, once they saw you being coached, so the boss steps up and does a demo or films their class, or does whatever, they go, ah, that's a different kind of conversation from what we usually have. That looks, that stuff, I’d like some of that, thanks. And then when demand outstrips supply, you know, you're doing something right. You know, but that coalition of the willing, that clarity and letting them see what it looks like. And then the other side, and this is not just me as a trainer, you do actually need training, for what we've shown already in the last half an hour, it's nuanced. There's a lot of layers. It's more than just taking a little framework, a process and a cycle. I mean, the department policies that are awash with cycles, you know, the school improvement cycle doesn't look that different to an instructional coaching cycle we talk about, but the nuance is what happens in all those nice little bubbles and diagrams. The conversations are the things that fuel them and those are based on relationships. So that's the one thing. I suppose the other caution, number one I would leave you with is as you need to start thinking about what are the, what I like to call the antecedent conditions. So what's, what has this been transplanted into? You don't, even if you've got a brand new school, you're going to get staff from different places. So you may think that's the dream ticket. You get a brand new school, fertile ground, then you plant coaching and it, well, that's very rare, first. So, you know, one of my former colleagues, former GCI colleague as well, Sophie Hunter, she talks about the professional learning architecture in your school. So how does coaching fit or mentoring or both? How does this kind of way of operating conversations, sit alongside them around your other forms of professional learning? If it's a plugin or an add on, they will fall flat on its face because you don't have time to add anything else to it, do you? Um, so one of the decisions for leaders is how do I need to work with my finite resource that I've always got? And one of those is time to privilege this over something else. What am I going to stop doing if I really value this and want staff to be doing more of this? And that may mean you're smarter with your meetings. You change the time to all sorts of things I've seen people do, but you actually need to confront that. And if you don't, you're just waiting for it. And there's lots of things in schools you wished for that never quite come to fruition.

L: Uh, yeah, schools are very busy places and there are always priorities popping up. And if this is something that you really feel that you need to implement well, you're right. You've got to do it properly.

C: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, I've I've now started to talk about a coaching culture, being some form of organizational way of being, you know, we talk about coaching way of being as an individual, how you experienced me and how I show up. What was your organizational way of being look like? How do you talk around here? What do you talk about?  Again, for me, that's what a coaching culture would be like, but then when it says, or what does that look like at my school? You know, and the context serving this.

L: Yeah. What really stood out in, uh, today's conversation, and I guess this has been a real aha aha moment for me to think about, does this person need more of me or does this person need less of me and, and having that balance and really understanding what that need is. Yeah. I mean, that's just, I think that’s just so powerful. I want to thank you.

C: I think that's honestly the heart of it. That really is the heart of it. And for that, for you to do that well, you need to be quite humble. And you need to be willing to set aside your well-earned expertise and hard-fought qualifications and so on. You need to be willing to set them aside and say, let me just meet this person, where they’re at and see what they've got and know why you're doing that. You're not doing it just because it's nice. You're doing it because it actually brings out more in that person. Then they're going to be more motivated as a result. And you find me a principal who doesn't say they want a more motivated staff.

L: I think that's a fabulous note to finish on. Chris, thank you very much for your time. You know, your knowledge, your expertise, your understanding, it's all there, and that's come through today. So thank you very, very much, and I wish you all the best.

C: Thanks Loretta.

L: And lots more coaching for a lot of people in the future.

C: It's been an absolute joy and yeah, I never pass up an opportunity to talk about coaching in education, as you can tell. So, yeah, that's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to this latest episode of talking out of school where we cover topics and dilemmas associated with the ups and downs, and even the downright curious of the school leader's job. Want to know more? Then visit me at shapingleaders.com.au

But for now, here’s to staying ahead of the game.

 

Resource Chris referred to during the interview.

Munro, C (2020), A Continuum of Professional Learning Conversations: Coaching, Mentoring and Everything in Between, CollectivED [11], pages 37-42, Carnegie School of Education, Leeds Beckett University.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/352437708_A_Continuum_of_Professional_Learning_Conversations_Coaching_Mentoring_and_Everything_in_Between_A_Think_Piece_Working_Paper

 

 

Even school principals, who intuitively are great coaches and mentors, benefit from being coached. In this episode, we listen to Robin Stickland, experienced principal, talk about why she chose to be coached, how she benefited from the experience and her advice to school leaders as to why they shouldn't shy away from the experience.

 

 

#4 Robin Stickland

You're listening to Loretta Piazza, experienced school, principal, mentor, and coach, and together we're 'talking out of school'. You will hear from leaders who have lived and breathed so many experiences, agonized over decisions and have tossed and turned through countless sleepless nights. These are the people who will help you stay ahead of the game.

Introduction

Given a principal's heavy workload and the complexity of some of the things they have to manage on a day to day basis, also the constraints that exist on their time, what is it that can get them over the line? Talking to my next guest Robin has left me in no doubt that there is a powerful support available to our school principals and I’m also left feeling immensely confident that our schools are in good hands.

Interview with Robin Stickland

Loretta: Hello Robin, thank you for joining me in talking out of school.

Robin: Loretta, it's a real pleasure to be here this morning with you and, um, and I'm sure that we're going to have a lovely conversation.

L: I have no doubt that we will. So can we start off by you telling us a little bit about yourself and your background and what it's been like for you in education all these years?

R: Well, I've been a teacher for nearly 50 years, which in itself is amazing. I don't know where that time has gone. It seems like only yesterday I was coming out of teachers’ college. And for 27 years of that, I have been a principal of an eastern suburb school and thoroughly enjoyed my time as a principal. Um, before that I was an AP for three years in another eastern suburb, but I've also worked extensively over in the Dandenong area. So I've done, uh, quite a bit of work over in that area and then come across to the eastern suburbs. I suppose my school is in the, what they call the leafy green belt. We’re close to the Dandenongs and, um, it's a school of 753 students. And we also run a kindergarten. So we have 110 students in our kindergarten. So we're together we're quite a largeish school for the area and over 70 staff in my school altogether.

L: And how many kids in the kindergarten actually end up enrolling at your school?

R: About 98% of them. We don't limit where the enrollments come from, uh, for, from the kindergarten. Um, however, of course, as you know, schools are very heavily zoned and so we can only take those, um, children who live within our zone and they know that when they enter into the kindergarten. We do have some that actually move houses to come to the school because they want that ongoing education for their child from kindergarten to the prep foundation, but, um, the other children go to, um, Catholic schools in the area, private schools in the area.

L: That was my next question. What sort of, uh, competition do you have with the private schools?

R: Well, there's a lot of private schools within our area. And, um, we do lose some of our students at grade four, going into grade five to the private schools around, especially if the children have outstanding naplan results. Um, the private schools tend to look at those sorts of things and children who are very good at sports or science competitions, et cetera.

L: So has anything changed recently in terms of say fewer kids going across to the private schools, given that there's a lot in the, in the media, in the newspaper, how our government schools hold their own and are doing very, very well? So have you noticed any sort of a difference?

R: Yes, I have over the last, maybe five years, um, parents are very wise and very capable in doing their research on schools and looking at naplan results, et cetera. And our school holds its head up very well with the private schools in the area and doing better in lots of ways, uh, in the naplan results than some of the private schools. So we have found with the GFC and also just lately with COVID lots of people have either reduced their hours or lost their jobs. And the private schools are extremely expensive to go to. They offer lots of, of programs outside the normal curriculum. And so parents, some of them have come across to our school because they just can't afford to keep their children in the private school stream.

L: You know, I think this makes for a fascinating topic and maybe at a later stage, I can talk to you again about public versus private. That's one of my favorite topics, I've got to tell you.

R: In fact, uh, I have employed three teachers that have come to me from the local private schools and they're glowing of the education that we are providing and the programs that we're providing for our students in our school. And that is really comforting to hear, very comforting.

L: Well, that actually is the perfect segue to me asking you, what do you stand for as a leader?

R: Oh, well, good question. Uh, I attempt always to model professionalism in everything that I do and the way that I go about my job and my interactions with my staff, with my leadership team and with the ES staff that we have at, at school, I try to…..see I'm using the word try. I don't always achieve, but I try.

L: Well, you're realistic, and then you’re honest.

R: I have great empathy for other people and what they're going through going through sometimes, you know, there are great challenges in teachers and stuff, life outside school. And I always try to understand where people are coming from and accommodate them and their talents. There's so many talented teachers out there at the moment. I attempt to have them be their best. And I try to be my best whenever I'm at school. So I suppose that's my coaching background that, that assists me with that being my best and looking for people's skills and making sure that they're using their skills for the betterment of the school. And I think one of the things that I stand for is not doing things for other people that they can do for themselves. And I have this saying, don't do anything for a child that a child can do for themselves, because that is part of their growth and part of their learning and part of their education. So I really try to model, not problem solving for others, but asking them, how do you think you would go about this? What do you think would be the best pathway going forward? How are we going to keep this future focus? And in some ways, it's really keeping the ship moving in the right direction. I think my role as a principal and what I try to model these looking after my staff, so that my staff look after the children really well.

L: No wonder you're such an advocate for coaching with that sort of a philosophy, but just before we go into coaching where you're an experienced principal and having been a principal for 27 years, you would have done a fair bit of mentoring, whether it be of your staff or, you know, an AP or, or something like that. What are your experiences as a mentor of others?

R: Well, I'm a qualified mentor through the Sage program. And, um, the department has given me many principals, young principals to mentor in my 27 years. The best mentoring I think that I have done has been the mentoring just through conversations and making linkages with, with others, talking to them at, at meetings, at breakfast meetings or even VPA meetings, et cetera. I learned so much from others and I try and always give of myself to those people as well. Whenever I've been on a principal panel, the new principal that has come into either the network or into the, the position I've always offered to mentor them going forward and, um, you know, sharing back in the days when we had newsletters, rather than just posts on, on our website, you know, I would share my, my newsletter with them. I would share policies and procedures with them and talk to them about the breakdown of the senior management team of the school. I've always been confidential. I have kept information that, uh, others have given me about their school to myself. I really feel that you don't know what it's like to be a principal until you're actually sitting in that seat. It's all very well looking at it from, from another vantage point. But until the buck stops with you as a principal sitting in that seat, and you have the responsibility of the staff, the school, the facilities, the financial, um, management, and especially the welfare and the academic gains of students you don't know what that's like. And some people that really hits the mess as, oh my goodness. I didn't realize it would be like this, but you give them six months and they're very seasoned by then. They've had a few challenges, et cetera. And as a mentor, I really love to see that.

L: That's interesting because you are also an internationally accredited coach with Growth Coaching International. And the other aspect of this, which greatly interests me, which I want to talk to you about further, is the fact that you are being coached. Now you're being coached by somebody who is not in education, who is not in our field. How is that going?

R: Well, the coach that I have is just so skilled. And going back to the first question, I try to model what I expect from my staff. And I have been coaching a number of my staff and therefore it's, it's fitting that I am being coached as well. And that they know that I am being coached to bring out the best in me to further the school and to further my acumen as a principal, as a leader and the questioning, et cetera, that is that my coach uses with me is teaching me all the time. These extra questions that I can use in my own coaching or this way of looking at my work. It was one of the best things that I did through Bastow, through the, I think it's called the Institute now.

L: It's actually called The Academy.

R:  The Academy. That's right. Yes, one weekend I thought I really need some assistance during COVID to think clearly and have clarity about how I'm going to get my students and my teachers back onto the school site successfully. And I brainstormed myself and I talked to my senior staff, et cetera. And I thought, I definitely need to bring this all together. And at the moment I need a little bit of help from a coach and there was this coaching and I thought I will sign up for that. And it was the best thing that I did.

L: What are the fundamental differences between mentoring and how you operate as a mentor and the purpose behind mentoring and what you want to achieve and coaching? Maybe there's no difference. I don't know. How do you see, because you're both in, and you can work within that continuum because I know Chris Munro, the CEO of Growth Coaching often talks about that continuum from mentoring to coaching and you can move up and down, which is a, quite an interesting perspective and way of looking at it. So what's your view on this?

R: Well, I am very aware of when I am in coaching mode. And when I am in mentoring mode. At the beginning of my, my coaching, I would slip into mentoring all the time.

L: Is this you as the coach or you as the coachee?

R: Me as the coach. And I see clearly it's this old adage: coaching is teaching someone how to fish so that they can fish for the rest of their life. Mentoring is giving someone a fish that they can eat and have now; a solution to a problem now. And it's my solution, not necessarily their solution and it is adding to their learning. However, it is not adding greatly to their own learning as coaching is. I am a full addict of coaching. I just love coaching because I can see what the outcomes are for my staff and for my coachees and how much they can come in such a short time in increasing their skills to problem solve for themselves. And I've had that experience, you know, when I was, um, actually learning to become a coach and going through the accreditation process, um, I was going through a number of, of issues, both in my private life with, with some, uh, health issues and also continuing with my principalship and it really helped me during that time to find clarity and to move forward. And that's the main thrust of coaching. It's what I can do. What are the next simple little steps that I can do to help me to solve this problem or to achieve the goals that I, that I've set for myself?

L: You were saying that when you were coaching or when you were mentoring, you know, sometimes you would be coaching. Sometimes you would be mentoring. Are you always a hundred percent understanding of what you're in, what mode you're in or do you just do it because you've got an end goal or that's the purpose right at this moment and then maybe reflect on it later.

R: I'm very aware of it. Now, when I was a, uh, inexperienced coach, I would find myself saying, oh, well, that's easy. You could do this and this and this and this which isn't coaching, it's mentoring.

L: Oh, well, you know, we're very good at giving advice because it's hard, isn't it, to sit back and not tell the answer.

R: But it is beautiful to see that aha moment when someone that you're coaching all of a sudden realizes that yes, they've got the skills. Yes. They could do it this way, or they could do it that way. And this way would be a better way of doing it. And my next step is this tiny thing that I can do in the next hour. It is wonderful to actually see that within the people that you are coaching. And I think, I just think that coaching is so much more powerful than mentoring, or you can tell I'm I'm a coaching addict.

L: Yes, I can. Okay, right. Well, let's, let's talk a little bit more about your experiences. You know, as a principal who is being coached, what does the average session look like? So do you, do you start off with goals or what is it that you do?

R: Well, the, the sessions that I'm actually experiencing at the moment go for an hour and they start off normally with just chat. What's going on in your life at the moment? Um, what do you want to do? What are you, what are your skills at that you're sitting, um, looking forward? What are you finding challenging? And then it is that nitty-gritty question. What do you want to work on today? What is the best use of our time here together? And it really brings it down to very specific problems, concerns, issues, or goals that I might have as a principal.

L: Have you ever got to the end of a session and thought, wow, this was a waste of time?

R: No, because I have a very skilled coach. And at the end of each session, she asks me now what was useful Robin? And there are so many things that, that we have gone through that are extremely useful. And sometimes she will send me, uh, articles. Or tell me about Ted talks or, uh, things that are going to assist me in my principalship. And I find that that's after of course our coaching session. And I find that really powerful for my own learning. When I stop learning I may as well not be a principal and I'm learning so much at the moment. That's one thing that, um, with COVID my skills of digital technology, et cetera, have absolutely advanced.

L: Is that because of coaching?

R:  No, not because of coaching because to actually yes, to do my job, to do my job, I need to be skilled in WebEx and zoom. And, and now we're looking at Squadcast. So yes it's, it's really quite interesting. I love learning from other people.

L: So you, you mentioned that in, in some of your coaching sessions that really helped you, you know, transition back to school once the kids went back to school in term four. What are some of the other achievements that you've personally had through coaching. Is there anything that stands out?

R: There is one and it's very, very personal in my personal life, but I will share it with you. At one stage, it looked it, I had an infection that went, um, uh, rampant through my leg. And this was when I was doing my coaching accreditation and it looked at one stage that I would have to have my leg amputated if they could not control the infection.

L: Goodness, me.

R: And, um, it was a very trying time and I spent a lot of time in hospital and two operations, et cetera. And I was being coached all the way through this. And I tell you the, my positive attitude towards everything that was happening to me that I had no control over whatsoever. You know, it was all, you got to have this x-ray, you got to have this MRI, you've gotta have this cat scan. You know, you've got to be on 14, um, doses of, of, of, um antibiotics and you've got to remain in hospital because it's intravenous, et cetera. The way I coped with it was through coaching myself, using the coaching questions over what could I control and what can I do?  Really help me through that period of time? And so when I say I've seen the power of coaching, yes I have.

L: What did, well, I mean, certainly there was a very positive outcome and going through something personal that is so traumatic and to be able to remain positive and to continue to engage in coaching when I think I probably would have said, no I'm not doing that because I've got other things to worry about. So that is a real credit to you. And it actually shows, it demonstrates very clearly what you personally believe about coaching. That's very, very, very obvious.

R: I can give you lots of examples within my school. Like the transition that I'm being that I was being coached for just recently. It was very successful, very successful. Bringing the children back on the site, um, facing the issues that teachers had. The parents had. And still have to a certain degree and ensuring that we had a safe, secure environment for everyone to come back onsite, where we're in our little bubbles and we've got to stay in our bubbles. And that really assisted me in going, right, we need to do this, this and this in this order if we are going to transition back into school successfully.

L: What sort of advice would you give to other principals regarding coaching? I mean, given that you're in a network of over 50 schools, and I imagine there would be all sorts of principals, whether it be gender, experience, age, so leaving all that aside, what would you tell your colleagues?

R: I would tell them to, if you want to be better at something or anything, get a coach. And I think there is a Ted talk from the most wonderful surgeon that the title is ‘if you want to be better at something, get a coach’. And I would advise them to just even do one or two coaching sessions with a coach from Bastow and just try the clarity that it gives you moving forward. And to know that there is somebody there that is confidential, and of course people have people within their networks that are confidential, that they can. Try, you know, um, to talk through their problems, concerns or issues with, but that conversation is normally a mentoring conversation. Oh, well, I'll do it this way. Will you try this? Or you could do it, this, you could access this information, et cetera, rather than coaching and building the skill of the person that is being coached. So my advice to any principal, whether you're a new principal or a very experienced principal, try coaching.

L: Well, Robin you're nearing the end of a long and fabulous career in education. What does the new chapter in your life, what's it going to look like?

R: Oh, yes. Um, I would like to continue with my coaching and I would like to be useful, maybe volunteer work. I do some volunteer work now for Monash Medical Center and for Marine Care. So I'd like to advance that. I think for the first three months though, I'll just sleep. Which is, um, it's just catch up on the sleep that, uh, that sometimes, uh, goes awry when you're a very, very busy principal and, you know, addressing what you need to address on a day to day basis. And we're all busy, busy people in schools now.

L: Well, I've just got to say Robin, thank you very much. You know, your passion for coaching, but not look, not just for coaching, but whether it be mentoring and the leader that you are, it is just so obvious. Now I have the privilege of being able to see you during this interview, which our listeners won't, but I can just see that passion come through your eyes and, you know, through your body language and you voice too. Of course. So thank you very, very much. And I really do wish you all the best as you transition to something perhaps, a little bit more, you know, less focused on, you know, the day to day accountability issues that principals deal with, but being able to do something that you really, really love and have that balance once again, in your life, put your health first.

R: Thank you Loretta. I'm really looking forward to not focusing on the toilets and the leaks in the roof, um, and just really looking at doing a little bit of coaching to assist people in their roles within schools. Lovely. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to this latest episode of talking out of school, where we cover topics and dilemmas associated with the ups and downs, and even the downright curious of the school leader's job. Want to know more? Then visit me at shapingleaders.com.au

But for now, here’s to staying ahead of the game.

Details of the TED Talk Robin mentions

Want to get great at something? Get a coach

https://www.ted.com/talks/atul_gawande_want_to_get_great_at_something_get_a_coach

 

 

 

When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is truly ready, the teacher disappears.  Celeste, a primary school teacher, shares her story about the advantages of having a mentor, and the great relationship they share.

 

 

#3 Celeste Petinella

You're listening to Loretta Piazza, experienced school, principal, mentor, and coach, and together we're 'talking out of school'. You will hear from leaders who have lived and breathed so many experiences, agonized over decisions and have tossed and turned through countless sleepless nights. These are the people who will help you stay ahead of the game.

Introduction

In this episode, we're continuing the mentoring theme. But this time we're taking a much closer look at mentoring through the eyes of the mentee. Many of us have had the privilege of mentoring others such as our own assistant principals, but have we ever stopped to reflect or even to ask a mentee what they're getting out of the experience? Luckily, this topic has been well researched and many of the common themes have been documented. The mentee wants to be taught things that they don't know. My mentee wants to gain a learning specialist job and she asked me to help her. Even though this hasn't happened yet, I've been able to show her that by taking a strategic sidestep in a brand new school, there will be lots of opportunities coming her way in the next year or two. Without my guidance, she probably wouldn't have come to this realization on her own. The mentee also wants their mentor to open doors for them by putting in a good word, and by helping them expand their networks. Of course, there is a real proviso with this, the mentor will not open doors unless the mentee is ready, as this could seriously jeopardize the mentor’s credibility, and even their reputation if they were to get it wrong. Maybe to a lesser extent the mentee wants their mentor to protect them throughout the journey. This is probably not something that a mentee reflects on it's as it's most likely a case of not knowing what they don't know. This is where the mentor’s help becomes crucial. Recently, I recognized that my mentee was making what I considered to be some risky moves. I quickly stepped in and helped her find better ways to manage the situation that she was facing. For me, it was important to do this because I was the one that recognized that there was potential harm for her if she continued on this path. And lastly, mentees want to be inspired by helping them experience new situations and meet new people. All of a sudden, they're on a new and exciting path well beyond what they thought was possible. Not long ago, at the end of one of our mentoring sessions, I introduced my mentee to three of my principal colleagues just before joining them for lunch. My mentee told me later that she felt absolutely privileged to have met these three experienced principals. While on my part, it was just a simple and respectful gesture, introducing her to my colleagues, but for her, it opened up a whole new world. But no relationship is one sided. So now let's consider mentoring through the eyes of the mentor. The mentee needs to show initiative and the right amount. There are times when they just need to sit back and follow. There'll be other times when they will need to be going above and beyond. For example taking ideas from their mentor and giving them a go. The mentor expects a mentee to learn and to show evidence of that learning. They need to be serious about any effort that's made to teach them. The mentor expects their mentee to follow through whether it be an agreement, a task, or even just a suggestion. The mentee needs to be doing the work. The mentor won't invest time and effort into a relationship if the mentee doesn't pull their weight. And lastly, the mentor expects their mentee to manage the relationship, even during those times when the mentor is taking the lead. Every so often the mentee should reflect on the status of the mentoring relationship and decide where to next. iI could be that the mentee comes up with a whole new set of goals that they want to achieve. Or it could be that they decide to leave the formal relationship. It could mean continuing on a more casual basis, or even finding a completely new mentor. Whatever the next step in the journey, it's the mentee who has to drive it. Recently, I came across the writings of a famous Chinese philosopher, Lao Tzu. He sums up the mentoring relationship beautifully. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is truly ready, the teacher disappears. My guest is Celeste and she's the primary school teacher. Unfortunately during the interview, we experienced some technical issues in the form of voice echo, predominantly from my end. I'm grateful to Celeste for freely giving of her time and because I want to keep this as authentic as possible, the voice echo has not been removed. Hopefully this does not distract from the quality of what Celeste had to say.

 

Interview

Loretta: Celeste, hello, thank you for joining me on talking out of the school.

Celeste: Thank you for having me.

L: Let's start off with you telling us a little bit about yourself.

C: Sure. My name is Celeste. And I've been teaching in the government sector for nearly 11 years. I’m going, and I love teaching, and I've taught, all year levels and had a specialist role. And now I'm on to my journey of finding an official leadership job.

L: What sort of leadership job are you looking at?

C: I'm looking at a leading teacher or a learning specialist role, in particular in literacy, or STEM, or an untagged one. That's like a mystery flight, because I feel my skills can be transferable.

L: That's interesting, a mystery flight. What makes you think you're ready for learning specialist job?

C: Does anyone really think they're ready for anything? Honestly, I think I've matured, have understood that leadership involves having the skill set of being able to look at whole school perspective, rather than just in your own year level or cohort. And I think I've got more experience. And I've been very lucky to be coached by you. And mentored, and I feel that the skills and knowledge that I'm receiving, it's just just a matter of time now.

L: Well, that's actually the perfect segue into me disclosing that I am your mentor. And it's interesting, you use the word coach, because initially, ours was going to be a coaching relationship, but it didn't take me long to realize that you needed a mentor. Mentoring is about helping people in terms of their career and their career aspirations. So it's good that you actually brought that up. But I'm sort of just also wondering if you could tell us now, I don't want this to be a mutual admiration society, I want you to be honest. And I want you to tell it, like it is, worts and all. What's your experience as the mentee, how has that been going?

C: I absolutely love being mentored. I feel that it's very supportive. And I learn what to do, different skills, wealth of knowledge, experience and passion. It's so inspiring. And I like to hopefully, take in as much as I can. I've learned so much in terms of how to structure emails, in terms of how to be succinct. Still working on that, I'm not really that succinct. But I'm working on that one. It's not my strong suit. And it's quite motivating. And especially because I've never had a mentor, or a coach, in my teaching career, even when I was a graduate, I actually feel quite blessed. And whether it was now or then at some point in your life having a mentor, particularly in education, because that's a field of interest that I’m in, it's really helpful and beneficial. It enables you to springboard conversations that you may not think about. And I think personally, it's so much more valuable having a mentor externally to your work organization. Because they see things differently. Like yourself, you see things differently. It's good for setting goals. And there's times obviously when you switch the hat from mentoring to coaching, but predominantly, our relationship is mentor mentee. So I can't, I'd be here all day talking about how good you are. So my relationship and experience with mentoring has been phenomenal. And I would recommend it to anyone, because you end up seeing things that you may not necessarily see about yourself. And the questions that are asked, because you're such a good mentor helped me feel that I'm going in a better path than maybe what I could be doing on my own.

L: Having that strong connection and relationship is really, really important. I guess for us, we hit it off pretty well, pretty quickly. How do you think, you know that connection and relationship, how do you think that works in a mentoring situation?

C: That's a really good question. So I agree with you. We did hit it off very quick. And I feel very honored to hear that. So I think, though, it depends. I think the most important thing is when you find that you want to get mentored, that you have a very good relationship with the person. But I also think you need to be a little bit patient. Like you said, it's probably a bit unusual to be able to build a relationship that quick because you need to be able to give the person some time to develop and get to know you and the ability to build your mutual trust is something that perhaps doesn't happen straightaway. But I think if you're really interested in getting a mentor, it's really important that you're patient with the person to get to know them. And vice versa, the mentor takes time to get to know the mentee. The other thing I guess that could potentially be seen as something that may feel like its hindering in someone's experience, hasn't for me personally, is that sometimes information that you received from yourself could perhaps be a little bit overwhelming. But I guess it just depends on what your goals are with the person. I don't personally find that to be the case.

L: Yeah, that's actually interesting. It's a good observation that you make, because when you self reflect, think about how you responded to particular situations, or what was said or what was asked. And I think in terms of the mentor, you know, I don't know if you're familiar with the Goldilocks principle where it's got to be just right, so I often reflect and wonder, have I given you too much information? Or have I perhaps not given you enough? How do I know that I've given you just the right amount of information that's needed at this time? And the other thing I ask myself as well? Are you just being polite? Or are you being honest? So that brings me to another train of thought that I have. How do you give feedback to me?

C: Okay, so now I have to give you feedback, what do you say, Okay, I'll be honest, I'm too much of a direct person to pretend that I'm being polite. I will actually in my nature, I would be polite. But I think how do I give you feedback is by asking questions. So if I don't understand something, I will say, Could you please explain it? Or maybe that's not what I was talking about. Generally, that doesn't happen, because you seem to read me quite well. However, another form of feedback is after our mentoring sessions I write some reflection points on what I've learned where to next, or what I'll do next. It could also be just a message an email just to say, I tried this out, this worked really well. Like recently, I asked you a question about something. And I went to school, and I trialed it out. And I wrote back to you saying this worked really well. So that's terms of feedback. Also, when you give me readings, and you asked me to look at specific things, like for example, the book recommendation, it told me about driving school improvement, by Vic Zbar, Yes, and reading that and looking at the different preconditions of learning. My feedback to you, that was a fantastic book. And I know that when your mentor, I mean, this is a great thing to look for when looking for a mentor is, you know, you stop and use evidence based research. So it's not just something you just pick out for the sake of it. And I actually feel quite reassured in that aspect. And also, you have experience and a wealth of knowledge. It's not just about the experience, because I mean, I could be a teacher for 11 years and have experience, but I'm doing the same thing every day. You have a very, varied skill set. And I guess, you also have, which is something I don't necessarily have, but I'm developing, you're more strategic, you're a strategic thinker. And so in terms of feedback, because you're a strategic thinker, if I'm not understanding something, I remember we had a session which was online, was about inquiry. So I knew, and yeah, okay, at that point, I'd probably be polite and think about how to say something, but then, before I could say anything, which I was going to, I was trying to work out how to be polite, you're like, This isn't what we're talking about, and all that. So I think feedback also is some terms are quite broad in education. So maybe my ability to maybe word my questions a bit better, could be something that I can work on. So when I was talking about the inquiry cycle, I wasn't really talking about the inquiry cycle in terms of an actual approach. I was talking about it from the data inquiry cycle angle, so I should have said, Could you please help me with the data inquiry cycle. And also in terms of feedback, you're a dedicated mentor to me. And I think you have a really good relationship with me, and I feel very honored and privileged to work with you. And as you told me, once I do, use your words here, you're what you're, you're in the journey beside me. I think that's so beautiful, as opposed to you being in front of me or behind me, but I actually do see you in front of me. I don't mind doing that. Because it's true. I'm getting led by a good leader. Why do I have to care if you're in if I'm behind? I don't really care about that stuff.

L: Well, there's a great deal of trust here. So you know, when I bring things up, or we talk about things you tend to go along with it all. But if you were someone say who had very, very specific goals and very specific views, and perhaps were not so open with your thoughts, and your ideas, perhaps a little bit more timid, how do you think they would go about giving feedback to me or to the mentor, generally?

C: I think they’d be a bit reserved in their thoughts. And I think that it would take a bit of time for them to really give you feedback. Perhaps they might say part of what they want to say. And then perhaps as a mentor and mentee, you'd have to flesh out what exactly they're saying. So they might just say a word or a sentence, but they don't open up to it. And I also think, too, in terms of how they would go, I think a mentor will actually build their confidence to provide them with feedback. So I think it would be in itself a goal that you've worked through together.

L: I guess from my point of view, though, you know, it's it's important as, as a mentor, if we're going to do this properly, and you're going to get the best out of this, what's critical for me, what particular skills do I need to have as a mentor to make our relationship a successful one?

C: I think, for example, you've got good direction, having someone that knows the field well, being the person that's mentoring you is motivated. And is willing to learn if they don't know something, not to say that they don't. But if there wasn't, that they're good at goal setting, that they've got the ability to support you, have empathy, they've got a success rate, I know that you've got a good success rate. And whilst it doesn't really matter, if they're not that successful, they’re successful to you. Because what you look at success may not look like for someone else. I think the other thing that's really important, in terms of what mentor skills a mentor brings, is their willingness to come along on the journey with you. And they don't tell you I don't think this is actually a skill set. I don't know what you'd call this, this is probably not answering it fully, but being hopeful and believing in not , Oh, no hoping hope that that's that, to me, is something that's very important than a mentor brings. Because I just can't tell you how refreshing it is to have someone that actually in education in my journey, see something in me and I actually really locked up.

L: You know, in my years of teaching, without giving it too much thought at the time, I had a couple of really brilliant mentors, one in particular. And he said, you need to do a masters. And I haven't given it any thought or, you know, you need to go on school council. One day, you're going to be a principal, and I just laughed at him. You know, so what you're saying about having that faith is really, really important. And, and I think people see things in you that you don't necessarily see, and you hope they're good things. And in in our case, yes, I see some really good things, same way that Charlie saw some fabulous things in me. And I guess I wouldn't be where I am today if if I didn't have people there standing beside me. And occasionally getting in the front and doing the leading. So I guess the next thing too, is about the mentee. Because you know, looking at you ,you just don't sit back and and wait for everything to happen.

C: I think definitely being open to learning. Being willing to give if you're interested, the mentor relationship a chance, particularly if you've never done it before, because it can be for some people nerve racking. I think another skill set it to follow through on what has been asked of you because there's no point, if someone gives you readings to do that, you just say I'm going to read them and you don't do them. Because then it's not really doing what you're asked to do. And being motivated, intrinsically and extrinsically but motivate yourself, being very resilient, because you may not achieve your goals straightaway. And I think that if you're expecting to go to a mentor, and then you just get a session and then I'll have everything, it can all happen but it's very unlikely. And being very respectful of your mentor. I think that's really important and getting getting to know them a little bit because whilst it's important that you're focusing on what you're doing, I think you need to have the good people skills so that you can know the as well. And that's also in a way how you as a team, like your work on getting to know each other so that it brings out the best in both of you. So that's the skills that I think are important to bring.

L: Relationships and strong connection has come up constantly. I can't help thinking, do you think, though, that if if a mentor and a mentee don't necessarily have that strong connection? Do you think they would still be that success in the mentee achieving their goals?

C: This is actually a really interesting question. I would say that it would depend on what the goal is. And what do I mean by that is if the goal is fairly generic, not necessarily, you may need to have the mentor and mentee having the world's best relationship. But if it's something generic, such as reading a set of data, sure, I think that could be achieved pretty quick. I mean, really, but if it's something more personal, or more connected to the mentor and the mentee, sorry, then it might not necessarily be achieved. Because if you don't have that real strong set of trust, it might not be achieved. So for example, if for example, you're applying for a job, and you don't really want to tell your mentor, that you're going for a job because you're nervous or scared, and then you don't get feedback prior the interview, you may have less success rate of succeeding at that job interview, when you could actually utilize the skill set from your mentor that could potentially go in your favor. So if it's something generic, I don't think it really matters because a mentor, mentee wouldn't really care because data sets are generic, there’s nothing personally attached to them. If it's something personal to them, and they're not willing to open up, potentially, then I don't think it could be as successful. That's just based on my opinion, or it's not.

L: This really reminds me of the classroom. You walk into your class every day. And there are your kids. And what's the what's the most powerful tool that you've got at your disposal?

C: I'd say the connections, and obviously the safety first, because if you don't have a safe environment, they're not going to connect.

L: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the same sort of applies to a mentee and, and their mentor. I think, also, if you were to be chatting to some, you know, friends or colleagues, and they were to say to you, oh, I’m thinking about getting a mentor, what would you say to them?

C: I'd say, Absolutely, I wish I'd done it earlier. And I wish that I had known earlier in my career that whilst I may not have been assigned one in a school situation, that I could have actually externally gone and sought one out. So I think having a mentor is brilliant, and depending on what your goal are, but definitely, in terms of career advancement, or other areas, not just career advancement, yes, have someone 100%.  Yes, I have my parents, but they’re nowhere near is good in terms of what I'm getting out of this mentoring. But yes, 100%, I'd recommend one.

L: You know, we've talked predominantly about what you got out of this. But as your mentor, I have gained so much from working with you. So I am just as grateful as you are Celeste. Our situation came about because you actually visited by school and things developed from there. But saying, again, you know, one of your colleagues in your school who wants to look for a mentor. How would they go about it?

C: I would say that networking is crucial. And that it's really important to network, it could be through external PDs or workshops that you attend, or network within your own school, speak to your at your assistant principal or principal, to get a lead from them. If someone was asking me, I could recommend Loretta, pass on her details with her permission. I think that's really important. I guess the essence is that your network is your net worth. And I read that quote, recently, and I thought to myself, You know what, it's true. The people that you surround yourself with, and the people that you align your values and goals with will determine percentage of the makeup of you how successful you are in different fields. And I'm very fortunate that I have got a mentor that has given me so much net worth that I know that I'm on a good path. So yes, that is what I would be doing. If I wanted to get a mentor I'd be networking as much as you can.

L: That's actually very, very good advice. And the other thing too, that I always keep in the back of my mind is we work in a system and that means that we don't do everything although you know, we do tend to but we don't do everything for our own particular school. It's about education as a whole. And I'd like to think like, I'm giving back to education now by mentoring you, that as you gain in confidence and skill and promotion that you will give back to somebody, you know, less experienced, you know, in the future, because I think that's how it works.

C: I would absolutely love to do that. And with the short stints that I've had in terms of helping teachers on teaching rounds and graduate teachers, why not. The more you can help someone… As  you said, we're in a system, it's lovely, it's quite, it's actually quite a nice feeling.

L: Yeah, because it's that collective responsibility. You know, it's just not looking after your own kids. But it's looking after the kids in the cohort, and, you know, the kids in the school.

C:  In fact, I'm glad I didn't get the Lending Specialist role, because I wouldn't have met you. And I wouldn't be in this position. So sometimes things that you have to wait for are worth it. So it's been worth it.

L: And you know, there's this famous saying, for every door that closes, a window opens, and you've had a very, very big window open for you. So now it's up to you to go through. I know you're going to do very, very well. So Celeste thank you very much for your time, you've given us some great insights into the your thoughts around being a mentee, your expectations of the mentor and how, how critical it is to have that great relationship, which which I concur with. So I wish you all the very very best and I know that a learning specialist job and possibly even an assistant principal job…these positions are not far away for you. So Celeste, thank you, wishing you all the best.

 

Thanks for listening to this latest episode of talking out of school, where we cover topics and dilemmas associated with the ups and downs, and even the downright curious of the school leaders job. Want to know more then visit me at www.shapingleaders.com.au

But for now here’s to staying ahead of the game.

 

 

Today's leaders can't have all the answers; that's why coaching is so effective.  Long time coach, Mandy Dunn, talks about how she uses her experience as a school principal to tap into the needs of the people she coaches by assisting them gain clarity, regain energy and find focus.

 

 

#2 Mandy Dunn

Coach with Growth Coaching International

You're listening to Loretta Piazza, experienced school, principal, mentor, and coach, and together we're 'talking out of school'. You will hear from leaders who have lived and breathed so many experiences, agonized over decisions and have tossed and turned through countless sleepless nights. These are the people who will help you stay ahead of the game.

Introduction

According to Tom Landry, Texas born professional gridiron football coach, a coach is someone who has you see what you don’t want to see so that you can be who you have always known you could be.  Well I’d go a step further and say that a coach will help you see what you can’t see.  This is why coaching is such a powerful tool.  In today’s episode we get the indepth perspective of a very experienced coach, Mandy Dunn, who works with Growth Coaching International. Mandy tells us about solution-based coaching, the importance of building trust and she explains how she empowers her clients by asking the right questions.

Interview with Mandy Dunn

Loretta Piazza:  Hi, Mandy, welcome to talking out of school. Now your background and history is in coaching, but prior to that, you were a principal for a long time. So how long were you with the education department?

Mandy Dunn: Oh, golly. I was with the education department for probably 45 years, but about, um, 15 ish years as a principal and, and five years as a system leader.

L: So for a fair amount of time, more recently though, you're an accredited coach and you do coaching, but I'm really interested in your time as a principal. And I understand that you sought out a coach to actually work with you. Now, how did you know to do something like that given that coaching wasn't really the in-thing for principals back then?

M: Good question, Loretta. Back, it was the end of last century when I was first appointed as a principal, and at that point, um, I probably, I needed someone. I just knew I needed someone to talk to, someone who would be confidential, a sounding board and someone who was…. coaching wasn't the word then. But, um, this person was actually a psychologist, but was a coach as well.nNow I knew him previously and knew he would be the right person. So I had trust and the relationship with him because it worked in my previous school. And, um, so I approached him and we would meet. About once a term, I think, and I kept in contact with him. Um, over a 10 year period, especially when I needed to, um, revisit to, to, to think about my, my messages, my, my purpose, my moral purpose, what was going to be my focus that year. And I used him at different points in my career for different….

L: Now you're a very experienced coach. And looking back to that coaching experience that you had then, was it similar or the same, or was it different?

M: Similar, the same end, different probably all of, all of those things. Well, each was, as I say, you've got to build the relationship. We had a good relationship. Um, I knew that I was probably easy to coach and some people are. And I just needed the time and the space to think. And for someone to sort through my thinking, to give me clarity about what I needed to do, and that's what I did for a range of reasons, some for my own health and wellbeing, some because I needed that sense of purpose are as I spoke about. And sometimes because I had difficulty maybe managing people, cause it was a fairly difficult situation. So, um, yeah, same different. And we, we met, um, we met in strange places, Flinders street station, which is now Southern cross. Um, we used to meet there because that was convenient. We did mostly face-to-face in those days. And so there was a bit of travel with the travel gave me time to think as well, but to and from, so if you know, it's really worthwhile, so some bits, but with time the relationship was strong. Some bits were different because this person came from a different background and some, what was the other question saying? Well, whatever. Yes. All of the above.

L: And I suppose, while you were experiencing all of that as a principal, you would have launched into a bit of mentoring and coaching as a principal with your own staff. Am I, am I right in thinking that?

M:  Yeah, you're right. Because I knew that the value of coaching, I went and did it a coaching qualification. So that probably triggered um, awareness or that level of understanding about impact you could have with people. So my role as a principal probably changed more than anything. In that, uh, in the conversations I could have with people having a different hat on, you know, the coaching hat or the mentoring hat and being there to help. I suppose it's a sense of, of helping people become better to do their work better.

L: Wonderful. So when someone approached you and needed some sort of support or advice or whatever, because something was happening to them, how did you know whether to be a mentor or a coach? Because as principals we’re great mentors. We do that all the time. Coaching has a, a different nuance. So how did you know how to approach the situation and help your staff members?

M: So knowing the person and being interested in their development, um, and asking them coaching questions brings on their development. Mentoring, um, is not always needed. So having that conversation where you are, uh, not, not, um, delving into the problem, but looking for solutions and looking with, looking at the situation to get a good idea of what the issue was, then exploring the options rather than telling the mentoring telling is the big difference with a mentor. You need a mentor at times to tell you how to do things. To help you orientate to a new role. There's a purpose for mentoring. There's a purpose. Sometimes in the coaching work I do to tell someone, um, you know, that something that would be helpful, but with coaching, it's really about, really about, um, bringing it on that self-awareness that responsibility to do something about it. And then the continued conversations should have, so they're often not one-offs and they're often even if it's a 10 minute conversation. It could be then a follow up the next week. How'd you go with that? Tell me what went well, what didn't go well, what would you do next time? It's those interactions and that coaching approach you have, rather than a coaching conversation, all coaching approach.

L: Can you tell us a little bit more about, well, building that coaching approach?  Is, is more about the, um, the way of being you have with people, the curiosity you bring, that sense of partnership with people, rather than the telling people what to do.

M: It's a, it's a genuine, genuine interest, a sense of being humble too, and, and investment in that person. So you bringing a it's, it's a, it's sort of a nebulous thing to identify, but it's lots of qualities and stuff. And awareness of the environment that you bring so that you create a safe, comfortable environment to someone to share some things that are sometimes quite….So you need to bring, um, a strong sense of, um, trust and confidentiality. Um, all those qualities you bring to a conversation, which is hard as a principal because you, you don't have a lot of time. So you've got to quickly switch from wanting to bring that parent back or do whatever you need to do and think what is important I need to do now with that person, or do I need to make another time to have a conversation? So they're really rich conversations where you've got to tell me more about that go deep into, into what's happening so that you can then explore some outcomes that they want to get to from that conversation.

L: So reflecting on what it was like back then when you were a principal and all that knowledge and experience and expertise that you have gained along the way and what you're like today, if you were to go back into a school as a principal and engage in coaching, how would it be different?

M: Well, it would be different cause I know more now. And I'll tell you what, I would have trouble going back into the principal role now, just with what, what has, um, what is the principal's role now and the learning…..

L: I have to tell you, Mandy not much has changed…..

M: Okay. So what would change would be a very strong sense of creating that environment, the trust and the relationships. Number one, that sense of letting people know that you're there to help them become as good as they can be in their role, and to allow people that time that they may need. Now, it may not be just the principal doing this, and I think larger schools that bring on a coaching approach in a school, it's the range of conversations you're having. So, um, a lot of schools have learning specialists who have a coaching role and other people in a school have a coaching role. So on that continuum of coaching, you've got quite direct conversations in that mentoring sphere and you have pure coaching conversations on the other end and a whole mix of conversations along the way. So I would be building an environment that would promote a range of those coaching conversations you would be having in a school.

L: Do you think it's a good idea for principals to actually coach their staff, given that a principal is a leader and is the overarching authority in this?

M: That’s another really good question. I think a principal could be a coach, definitely, um, but not of many people if it was a pure coaching approach you were having, because that would be really time-intensive. Yes, you could do it. But all would be building a coaching approach where you would be having, um, building, building those conversations that you would be having with people using a coaching approach rather than just being, as I said, being curious, ‘tell me more about that;  What do you think you can do to solve it?’ having more a solution focused approach to conversations rather than pure coaching of people.  You would hope that as a principal, you would be having other people who would be doing that to improve their, their teaching capacity, their, their, whatever they wanted to improve in their professional sphere.

L: You just mentioned a new term solution focused.  What's that? Is that different:

M: No, it’s just another, it's a, it's a way of coaching using, um, look, I, I think I used to have solution-focused, um, posters in my, in my office as a principal. So it's definitely not new. It's used in psychology. It's generally, it's a very simple approach in many ways. It's just around creating that platform for people to dive off and, um, explore the possibilities and come up with solutions and some movement towards what they want. It's it's, it's, it's just having that, that frame of reference around improvement and how you can, where you want to be, and, and creating these small signs and counters, we call them to, to move them along.

It's very small. Um, and identify what those small steps are to, um, what they do after you have the conversation.

L: Now, um, if you and I were to sit down for a coaching session, you're my coach. I'm the coachee. What could I expect to hear, say, think, feel?

M: Good question. Well, I would hope you wouldn't hear me talking much. I would hope that you would hear some silence. It's a strange thing to say here, silence, but here's some silences which would mean that I've asked a question that's encouraged some really deep thinking. I would hope that you would hear a bit of laughing. You would see eye contact, you would see the person being really comfortable.vYou would, um, you would hear some questions that I think I said that before that promote thinking, you will hear a sense of concern. A sense of empathy. You would, you would get a sense that on sifting through what they're saying to, to then paraphrase it back to make sure I'm clear about what it is that they're wanting or doing or saying. And you would hear some excitement and energy at the end where they're ready to go some motivation, because coaching's about actions, clarity, and so hopefully, hopefully you're getting a sense of that, of the clarity, the actions that the person's going to take from that session and the energy that, or the motivation they've got to go and do something. There's a little bit of accountability there because they know you're going to get back to them next session. So, so they, they know. So, um, and these are only small steps they're taking. It can be a very small, very small action that can make it have a big impact for them either personally. Or for whatever it is around their goal, their improvement area.

L: Well, I hate to tell you, Mandy, I'm an absolute dud and I'm thoroughly exhausted. How are you going to help me move on from this? Because I can't come up with any ideas, any solutions.

M: Sometimes that can happen. People still will make contact for a session and feel brain dead. Although it is better to make it when that, to make a time when they are feeling at their best, but that's not always going to be the case. So there's lots of tools you can use to, to, as I say, sift through, I use things like, well, what words are coming into your head? Different questions. I use a bicycle wheel as a bit of a symbol and get them to write a word in each of the prongs of the wheel. I also, um, get them to think about a time when things were working well for them. Think of, think of somebody they know that may have had this problem before and how they solved it. And then at the end, maybe offering them some, some possible options or suggestions if they're really stuck. So you're looking at a range of responses. Going from what have you done this before? If he does something similar to this before, do you know someone who's done something like this before or this before, and then would you like some suggestions from me? And it would be suggestions that would be around maybe, something that I've seen someone do. Not all suggestions about me from me, if you know what I mean. So I'm not telling. I'm using a different frame of reference and it could be just a website. It could be, have you thought of doing this? Have you thought of doing that? Okay. What is it, what is it, do you think you're going to do now? What will be your first step after we leave this conversation?

L: It’s certainly a skill, isn't it? To, to elicit that sort of information from…

M: They’re coming to you because they want to, they're coming there, they're having these sessions because they've identified something that they want to work on. Otherwise they wouldn't be there. So there's a sense of a purpose around why they're there. So you really invested in them and that generosity of spirit comes through coaching and the unconditional positive regard you have for that person. You remove all judgment.  You're just there for them to listen, to get them to build their awareness. So sometimes there's a bit of reflection in there for them. You know, why do you think that worked? What strengths do you bring ? A lot around their strengths, identifying their strengths, using their strengths. You're always coming from a positive mindset rather than a negative mindset. It's that, that that's the difference between problem-based and being solution-based. You're using a positive mindset all the time. Even the first question you ask and they want to launch in with how bad are things.

L: Yeah. I was going to ask you, I guess, especially with principals, you know, with lots going on, is it that natural tendency of theirs to say, oh, this is happening or that person's annoying me or….

M: Yeah, they they're wanting to solve a problem. So before they start, you've got to launch into something. You know, what you're proud of in the last few weeks, what's something that's really that's been positive. Or if you try to start the conversation in a positive way, um, and then they can go to whatever is the, the, the issue they've had. And often there are a number of things that come up in a coaching session that aren't necessarily around the goal, but it's around improving their health and wellbeing. It could be around improving, um, oh, a range of things that run alongside their goal. Their goal could be around school improvement. It could have been around, you know, um, something like, yeah, that school improvement being an instructional leader, something around that, but there's going to be other things. Managing difficult conversations comes up often. Um, all the time and oh yeah. Yeah. Managing conversation, managing difficult conversations is probably number one.

L: I know, I reckon that one comes up a lot because we have that trust and that respect for, well, generally we have that respect for people and then to deliver something really unpleasant or unpalatable is very difficult for us. We just don't want to do that.

M: Yes, that's right. Yep. Yeah. So I suppose again, it's looking at that person's strengths, even talking through a script that's going to help using, um, some, some, um, coach, even coaching resources to enable um, to work through that conversation. I know the, um, what's the program that Bastow ran a few years ago that had remarkable impact on people? Oh, I can't remember the name of it, but just calming it down, scripting it out, getting them to, to plan ahead. Just relieves that pressure so much for them. I'm not telling them what to do or say, it's just asking the questions. Well, what do you think you would do first, or flipping it and saying, if you were that person, what do you think you would like the principal to be, to be, so flipping it sometimes creates a bit more empathy and sometimes just the fear of working, working through that conversation and thinking it through just helps person clarify it for them.

L: Earlier you mentioned that there are silences. That would be really difficult. I mean, I don't know about you, but when I'm not talking and I'm only listening, it can be sometimes quite uncomfortable. So how do you get through that?

M: Well, I used to coach on the phone before they, they brought in zoom and all these interactive, but I think zoom in and being interactive is fantastic. But on the phone, there would often be silences. And when you, you are not face, face-to-face, it's easier because you know, your eyes wander. Um, you could see the thinking. So when there's a silence on the phone, I let it go. And then when the person comes back, I'll say something like I knew you were thinking, I let you let you let the conversation go. Just wait. And it could seem like ages. It's not, it's sometimes only about three seconds. It just gives the person that time. Well, they may say, ah, that's a good question. So you wait and you wait, don't jump in. A lot of patience needed really good listening skills.

L:  And that's how you build empathy as well. That way of being. What are some of the highs for you?

M: Oh, many, many, many, many highs. Seeing their successes, seeing the joy in and the pleasure they get out of achieving their goal, because often at the last session I will go through, let's say, let's look back at what you set your goal or your focus area as, and are you scaling a lot? So scaling, we may have scaled at the start in terms of, you know, on a scale of one to 10, where do you think you were and then where do you think you are now? Sense of achievement accomplishment? Yes, I've got that goal. Sometimes it can happen early on though. It doesn't have to happen at the end of the cycle. The pleasure, the response you get back from people…I need to talk to you now. Um, you know, that you know, that they value the time they really value the time they've had with you. It doesn't go on forever. It's there for a reason and there's been highs. There's been lots of people get, get promotions, lots of people uh, things get better for themselves, either being in their health and wellbeing, even leaving the job, if that's the decision that they come to. So, um, it's empowering them in seeing that empowerment for them to be able to then make decisions.

L: Well, having been in education for so long and a principal as well, you have fantastic knowledge about how schools work. I'm sort of thinking if you didn't have that background knowledge, would you still be an effective coach as you are now?

M: It helps. I, I think I could have coached people in, not, not just in education in other organizations and the first coaching training I did wasn't um, in education at all, it was for coaching that could work in across all spheres. So it wasn't that leadership type coaching. Having experience helps because you're already up the ladder in terms of trust and, and respect. They already know that you've been there. And I often get that when you were a principal, you would know this or, um, you would understand this, so you you're automatically given a sense of, she gets me or he gets me, he understands, or she understands what this is like. So coming from the same career background helps. It doesn't have to be though, because it's about the questions. It's the power of the questions that are going to drive the, the action.

L: So where to now?

M: This year with the, um, with Bastow the ducation department in Victoria, um, our contract, we have, we've had coaching quite a lot of coaching this year, and there's quite a few new coaching programs in 2022 through Bastow that are attached to programs. So it'd be coaching about the learning in the program, which is another new learning, well, not a  new learning for me, but it's a different way of coaching because it's connected to a learning. So it will be paced alongside what they're doing.

L: So will it be coaching specifically around something that principals are doing and elements of their work and their learning?

M: One of, one of them's, um, around school improvement and the other one's around student engagement.

L: If I asked you to sum up coaching what it is in, in a sentence….

M: Well, it's, it's a conversation. A trusted conversation you're having with someone that's going to make your life better. There you go. It's really simple.

L: Yeah. Well, I mean, that's sometimes simple is best. Isn't it? What advice would you give to principals? At any stage of their career regarding coaching?

M: If you are looking for a tool to use, to, um, improve what you're doing, try coaching

L: Fantastic. You’re certainly a really good advertisement for coaching. In this series I've spoken to quite a few people around mentoring. And also coaching. And what stands out for me is, and my thinking has changed I have to be honest, that it's less, uh, less about the label, whether it's coaching or mentoring, but more about how I can help the person who needs clarification or, you know, who just needs to move on with their thinking. So that's been a really great mind shift for me. And I'm hoping that it comes through in this series of podcasts because it's, it's been quite an aha moment for me, I've got to say, and people like you have really enabled people like me to really get to the heart of coaching. So from my point of view, thank you very much. Thank you for your time. And I have no doubt that our listeners have gained lots and also about you as a person and your belief and your efficacy, and having been a principal we understand that, you know, you wanted the best for your kids and for your staff and for people generally, but now you've moved into coaching. And it's exactly the same thing. The people that you're working with, you want the very best for them. So that's wonderful. So thank you very, very much, and I wish you all the best in your future endeavours.

M: Thanks Loretta. Bye.

Thanks for listening to this latest episode of talking out of school, where we cover topics and dilemmas associated with the ups and downs, and even the downright curious of the school leaders job. Want to know more? Then visit me at www.shapingleaders.com.au

But for now here’s to staying ahead of the game.

Are coaching and mentoring the same thing?  Over the coming weeks, the answer becomes clearer. Whilst asking the right questions is important, it's the mentor who has the knowledge and is the one who takes their mentee on the journey. In this episode, experienced and retired primary school principal, now mentor with The Victorian Academy of Teaching and Leadership, Deborah Patterson, shares her story with host, Loretta Piazza. And at times, her story is outrageous....

 

Contact Deborah Patterson on 0409 425 778

http://www.dpcoachingsolutions.com

#1 Deborah Patterson

You're listening to Loretta Piazza, experienced school principal, mentor, and coach, and together we're 'talking out of school'. You will hear from leaders who have lived and breathed so many experiences, agonised over decisions and have tossed and turned through countless sleepless nights. These are the people who will help you stay ahead of the game.

Introduction

These days everyone knows what mentoring is. In fact, having a mentor is a bit like the latest must have fashion accessory, but mentoring is certainly no fad. It's a very serious business that will help you get ahead in your career. If treated with respect.  For me, the issue lies in the way mentoring has become quite synonymous with coaching, especially in education.

That's not to say that a mentor can't use coaching techniques or engage in coaching conversations with their mentee.   Nor does it mean that a coach can’t help with achieving long-term goals, just as a mentor. No wonder there’s confusion; not even the Oxford dictionary gives a clear and concise definition. It tells us that a coach is a teacher or an instructor and is associated with sport.

Well, I'm both a mentor and a coach, but I'm not a coach of sport. Are they the same thing? Well, the short answer to that is no. Despite the fact that there's this tendency to use the terms interchangeably.  Let's firstly, look at what they have in common. Both mentoring and coaching are really effective for learning. And if managed well, they can increase a person's confidence and also improve their job performance. Both can play a part in any workplace, whether it be a private organization or a school and both mentoring and coaching build strong connections and relationships. So what's the difference then?

Well, let's look at mentoring first. It's the mentor who has the knowledge and experience and takes on the persona of the wise counsel. The mentor usually helps with the holistic development of a person's career. In schools we often associate mentoring with succession planning, for example, an assistant principal being groomed to become the next principal.

And because the focus is on overall development, there's less of an interest in coming up with specific and measurable goals as would be the case if a person was coached with the intention of improving their job performance. This is not what mentoring is about. And it's usually the mentee who is asking the questions and tapping into the knowledge and experience of their mentor.

Coaching, on the other hand, takes on a vastly different approach and context, and it can be achieved in as little as a one hour session. The coach must be a good listener and the coach must be able to ask probing questions. They've got to be comfortable with periods of silence and a good coach also knows it's not their place to give advice or answers even when the solution is glaringly obvious to them. In coaching the answers and solutions come from the person being coached. And consequently, it takes a skilled coach to enable this.

My guest today is Deborah Patterson. Debra is a retired primary school principal who works as a mentor for Bastow, now known as the Victorian Academy of Teaching and Leadership. She also runs her own private consultancy.

Interview with Deborah Patterson

Loretta: Hello, Deborah. Welcome to talking at a school.

Deborah: Thank you, Loretta. Looking forward to it.

L: Deb, I've known you for a very, very long time and it's just incredible how much you've been able to fit in outside of being a school principal. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

D: All right. Well, as you know, I'm currently mentoring. Um, to be six at the moment. I've finished with three. So I'm mentoring six principals, and I have been doing so for, or most of this year. I'm writing a book, tools, tips, and tricks, the passionate unconventional leader. Um, as you know, I spent 46 years in education and a principal in three schools. I loved my volunteer work with the YMCA. I was on the local Whittlesea board, their president for six years, and I was on the national Australian board for three, three years where I actually chaired the National Redress Committee. And I was also on the Licensing and Governance. But I especially loved my work with VACRO. That's the Victorian Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders. And I actually mentored three women in the Dame Phyllis Frost Detention Centre. So that's sort of been most of my work. As you know, I'm married, two children and four lovely grandchildren. So been very busy.

L: Absolutely. I'm really interested in the work that you've done with the female offenders. What does mentoring with them look like?

D: Well, uh, obviously you have to do the training course with VACRO, and then they match you up with, um, somebody who…the actual inmate put out a profile of what sort of person they would like the mentor to be, but they know nothing about your professional or personal life. So for example, um, one woman I was linked up with, I looked at the profile and it said 55 year old woman liked, um, animals. Um, we'd prefer to link up with a mentor face-to-face every fortnight. So I sort of put my hand up and, uh, linked up with her. And I met her at Dame Phyllis Frost Detention Centre with a rep from VCRO, and we chatted for a while. And then at the end of the session, if it's agreeable with the inmate that she wanted to continue the relationship. We met on a fortnightly basis for, um, was really six. It was three months, but we actually continued the relationship for six months.

L: Was it a successful association?

D: Yes. Yep.

L: And how do you know,

D: Uh, well this was, this was a woman who was pretty well…she didn't want any particular….because of her case study and because of her background, she was a very hurt and, um, defensive type woman. So I was able to go in there on a fortnightly basis and just focus on her. She didn't have any family, any visitors. She was someone who was going to be in there for quite some time. So for her to let down her defence mechanism and it, her barriers and look forward to actually have someone coming in. And initially we did the behind the screen type relationship or type visit. And then once she became more comfortable with me, we're able to actually meet face to face in these sort of, um, kitchen, our dining room area.

L: What did you get out of it?

D: Oh, gee, you have bit of insight into what goes on in, uh, in the female prison and probably…

L: Nothing like Wentworth?

D: Uh, yeah, well, yeah, it's, I mean, that's to the extreme, but there were a lot of similarities and, um, you know, many a time I would return for the session and there would be, um, there would be something that I wouldn't be able to talk about that I could tell quite obvious that she had been in, um, maybe a dispute of whatever. And, uh, so you learn to be very tactful in the type of questions you did not, um, talk about. It's certain issues that went on in, in there because you've been watched all the time and other inmates are also watching you speak to her. And there are ramifications the consequences that you may not be aware of, but you have to tread very, very careful.

L: Talk about a high level of emotional intelligence to work with these people.

D: Definitely. And as you know, being in education and having to work with some of the parents we've had to, as a principal, I've had uh, I've had to work with people who have actually been in and out of jail. And, um, many, a time I've been told that, um, various fathers would want to rearrange my face. And, um, so I had a bit of experience as a principal working with very difficult people. So I thought that, um, with helping women in, um, Dame Phyllis Frost would be relatively easy, but, uh, it's, it's just as different.

L: You know, one of my famous recollections was a parent, a male father who turned up and within about two minutes, he ripped open his shirt and showed me two bullet holes in his chest. And, you know, we actually got on really well after that. I knew, I knew exactly where I stood with him. What I saw is what I got.

D: Well, that's right. I remember having a father and he sat down and he said, you know, I've been in prison for 14 years for murdering someone. And I said, oh, well, I had better be nice to you.

L: Well, it just goes to show. We never lose that sense of humour, do we?  Have you ever been mentored in your 40 plus years?

D: Yes, I've, I've been mentored a couple of times. I was mentored once when I had breast cancer, that was all a personal, um, personal nature, but more so….oh, I haven't actually directly had a mentor because we were quite lucky. Our collegiate group was very collegiate and sharing. And so I was able to use people like that within the profession. A couple of times I had, uh, a regional advisor because you have to go on various interviews. And so I would get feedback on my, um, my application process and my interviewing techniques. And I remember a couple of the more senior personnel would advise me say, Debra, you need to do this, why don't you try this? And so, uh, I sought feedback and I took note of what they said. And, uh, it, uh, in the end I was successful in some of the applications that I went in.

L: Can you tell us about the people that you mentor now?

D: It's well, the, the principals that are from two type programs that are offered: the principal mentoring program for new principals and the principal Evolve program, again for new principals, but more specifically related to the Evolve program, the strategic, the human and the technical aspect. So, uh, when I'm, when I link up with the mentees, they have 12 sessions with me and they can have it weekly, fortnightly or monthly. And the idea is that they are to, we, we meet on the first session, establish that relationship, talk about the goals, do a mentoring agreement, and then we can go about when we meet.

L: Okay. So what does a typical mentoring session actually look like?

D: The first, uh, the agenda is, well, we start off with, uh, a meet and greet. Uh, welfare check-in because as you know, with principals, the welfare check in is probably the most important aspect of, of the session. So I usually ask them, you know, how are you feeling? And they give me a score out of 10. And in what gear are you working at? I'm wanting them to tap into their, what they're doing, but also to be in sync with their body, their feelings, because I consider that to be, if you're going to be here for a long time and sustainable leadership is something that we encourage in Victoria. Uh, you need to be in tune with your emotions in your health and wellbeing. So we do a little bit of a check-in. Are there any important issues that you would like to talk about? Uh, you know, they're important or they're urgent. So we deal with that. And then they've got three goals that they would like to speak to. And that could be a workforce planning goal by goal, um, dealing with difficult people. So we usually go back to the goals and talk about where we're up to with that. And then we finished off with a little bit of a reflective session. What was good about today's session? What would you like me to do or prepare for you next session? Or what, what, what, uh, what sort of things are you going to do in the next coming fortnight? And then we agree on the next set date and time, and the session finishes after.

L: Uh, Deb, I sort of wonder, do you follow a set script or do you work more intuitively based on what you think is needed and what you're picking up from your mentee?

D: Yes. Uh, all I do, I do have the script at the side of the agenda. But mentoring, you have to be at the beck and call of the mentee, and it's totally up to them though, the way that the particular session goes. And, and you can usually tell by the, the, well, the check-in and it just, by listening to their tone, their conversation, you, you really using all your IQ, emotional intelligence and tune in, and the the session could go one way or it could go another way, but it's all up to the, the mentee themselves.

L: You bring up relationships quite a bit, the need or the importance of having a good relationship with your mentee. How do you actually develop that relationship given that you don't know these people from a bar of soap?

D: So. Yeah, well, yeah, we don't know them, but being a mentor we've, we've got the knowledge and the experience related to the profession. So usually if they talk about any particular incident or issue that they are, well, that they are feeling challenged by it, uh, we can tune in. You know, that first session is important to build that trust in the relationship. And at the end of the session, if they don't like me, they don't want to continue, they say so. And I've actually had to deal with people who've said no to one, two or three mentors. And so that relationship, you just have to be honest. You have to, they don't want anybody to beat around the bush or fluff around them and to patronize them. They know what they want and they want someone, they want to mentor. You understand the context who is honest, who is skilled and knowledgeable and could, and can ask them lots of questions related to what they're actually saying. And above all understanding the concept, the, that the context in which they're there working that is really, really important.

L: I gather the mentees have a fair amount of choice as to whether or not they're going to select you as their mentor or say no and go onto someone else. Have you ever been in that situation where you think, oh dear, I don't know if I can do this with this person?

D: Well, Loretta, I can, I can usually go click click, work that person out probably within the first couple of, um, couple of minutes, but, uh, you know, I've worked with the rather difficult alpha male who's got the one type of commander type leadership style. And then he wonders why he's not getting traction within his school. But it's about, well..

L: you've told him why…

D: …and he said to me, you know, all I was told you were, you would challenge me and well, that's my job. If you want a pat on the back, if you want me to patronize you, that's not what mentoring is all about, but let's look at perhaps the style of leadership um, that your most familiar with. And when I ask him, maybe let's look at, tell me about your school improvement team. Tell me about their capabilities and their qualities. Tell me about the context of the school. And he realized that he was actually going into a school, which was already performing, was a high functioning school, looking at their teacher judgements, Naplan, essential assessment evidence. It was showing that the school was already, uh, as I said, a high functioning school. So you don't need that top down dominating, commander type leadership role when your skill level of the improvement team is relatively high. You then convert to a democratic team approach where you are collaborative. And so you don't get off your high horse, step down and accept the capabilities. And that's actually a strength of the school. It's a shame.

L: He couldn't say that, but then that's your job though, isn't it? To help them see that?

D: Well, you could be when you asked the question, you know, when you, when you say you're not getting traction, tell me about what are you seeing? What are you hearing? And then you could, then you unpack that and then you make you talk about, well, what's another, are you aware of synergy values, leadership style? What other style could you use? So you, you want the minty, do you become aware themselves that they need to change?

L: I think it's interesting that you talk about asking particular questions and that reminds me a bit about coaching because that's what coaching is; asking a lot of deep questions. So what's your take on coaching and how it can slot into mentoring and make it that little bit more effective even?

D:  Well, really, um, with mentoring, it's all about the process of learning with coaching.  With mentoring is the process of learning. You want them to learn for themselves and work through it and, and be guided. With coaching, it's about empowering the coachee to, to actually on a day to day basis. Go about the business and you, you can use various models like the growth model or, you know, the, um, there are other models that you could use, but it's coaching is day to day. You have to be with them and guide them and empower them as they go along. Whereas mentoring is, you can suggest that they do something, but they do that over a period of time.

L: So do I take it then that you don't get involved with any of the coaching styles?

D: No, I, I do. I cross over, I cross, I cross in and out at certain times.  I'm a mentor, but then sometimes I might use some tips and coaching techniques and I will talk about what I'm doing with the, the mentee, and you'll go through it. But I was talking about, I'm mentoring you here, but I'm using a coach, a coaching model here, and it's good for them to know the differences.

L: Yeah. Look, I have to ask you this because I know you so well. Have you ever knocked back anybody and said, no, I'm not going to mentor you?

D: Yes.

L: Tell us about it.

D: Uh, or it's not within education, but as you know, uh, it was in the corporate world and I get asked by the corporate world a lot of times as well. And I mentor, um, I've mentored a couple of people in, in, um, with the YMCA, but I was asked to mentor this particular person, and I was only given a small debrief information. So I spoke with the person, linked up with them, had a check, then had a second chat. And it was then that I knew not this is out of my realm. Uh, and there are times when you could, I could tell there were mental health issues and this person needed professional assistance. And I told them, so. Uh, I said, you know, unfortunately I'm not going to mentor you. You actually need professional help. And I would suggest you get to you, your GP as soon as possible. I'm going to ring you tomorrow and see if you've made that appointment, but you need help. Um, and as a mentor I cannot fix it. You need professional help. And, um, Yeah, it was good that he did that. I ran back to the next day. He made an appoint with his GP and he's actually getting professional help. And to a certain extent, as you know, in our profession, when we can see somebody who's going down that spiral and down anxiety, depression, and contemplating, um, suicidal thoughts. They need professional help.

L: Absolutely. What are your skills?

D: As a mentor love what I do love, love, love every day. I just, um, I'm enthusiastic. Uh, um, you know, me, I'm out there. Oh, I just love passing on my knowledge and helping those new young leaders that come into the profession because you come in with all this passion, you come in with the excitement and you want to make a difference, but it's what you don't know. Which is important. And if you can pass on, because there's not as, you know, like you 22 years as a principal, there's probably not any particular situation that we haven't gone through it. And we've had to go through it and learn from it. So passing those that, that knowledge on to the new principal. Gee, you can't, you can't get all that money. Doesn't pay for that. So, um, I'm just enthusiastic. I’m finally reading all those books, Loretta, as you know, we used to go to umpteen conferences, you know, Hattie, Hargreaves, you always bought their books, would go up to the counter and I would get a half a dozen books and I would hold them under my arm and parade around.

L: I bet they look good on your bookshelf?

D: And people used to come in and say, oh, Debra, you must be so clever. Um, and now finally I've actually read every single one of them and I've summarized it into one or two pages. And that's what I give to my mentees. Um, if they want something on conflict resolution, I'll shoot them out some reading material. If they want some templates on, on a particular topic or a project that they may be doing, I shoot the email out something like that. So glad that I've had time to be able to do that and now share it with the new mentees

L: You’d be a good listener wouldn't you?

D: No, no, no. But I look like a successful mentor. And these are skills that we develop as principals anyway, in particular being a good mentor and having high levels of emotional intelligence. There are heaps and heaps of behaviors that we have to demonstrate.

L: So you're a good listener. What else?

D: Well, you've got to be good at questioning. You've got listening skills, there's the, you know, the empathy, the reflective, the activation type listener. You've gotta be spot on, you know, a high order thinking. Questions. You've got to pinpoint. Well, tell me more about the context. What is your purpose? What's your plan? What are your models? What are your mental models going into that meeting? Uh, what, what do you want to come from the meeting? What, what is your vision? What's your mission? So by asking those questions, You can, it makes the mentee actually be in the moment and think, and that's, what's important because if you go into something unprepared and you think that you can fly by the seat of your pants while you're….because you're not doing justice to yourself. You're not doing justice to those that you're working with and above all, which is why we are here as principals. It's not good for the students. You need to know what you're doing, why you're doing it, how you're doing it for to get the desired outcomes that you want.

L: So what are the responsibilities of the mentee?

D: You have to commit to the timetable at the time that we made you respond to my invitation, uh, invite you make that time in your diaries and you are in the moment. And I've I've, I'm, I'm quite lucky because all the, all the principals are relatively responsible. The only time that they may have to cancel it is usually when something very, very important comes, comes up. And I, I perfectly understand. So they have to be committed. Do the time. Totally. Hmm. Actually follow through with anything that we two together that we decided to do, um, follow through and actually do it and then get back.

L: What advice would you give to someone who's contemplating finding a mentor?

D: I wish I had gotten, had a mentor, even, you know, a mentor, having someone who you can ring up at the drop of a hat and work with and who just cares about you. So anyway, look around, uh, by word of mouth. Um, most of my work through word of mouth. Oh, Debra worked with so-and-so. Can she work with, you know, this person?  So by word of mouth, it's also on LinkedIn. I have my own business DP coaching solutions.com. You really have to do your homework because mentors, there are a dime. Shouldn't say this, like they are a dime a dozen, but it's getting the right one and you can use. If you have to try before you buy we'll do that, you know, try it one or two or three until you feel comfortable. You feel that they got the knowledge and the skills and are listening to me. They then, they're there for me. And when that relationship and when it feels right, it's a bit like a marriage Loretta, but you know, when you get the right partner, but only mentoring is, is not a marriage. It is a relationship based on trust and confidentiality.

L: Got to hand it to Bastow they've done a fabulous job in all of this, but it took the death of our very dear friend and colleague to get things happening within the Department. And for the Principal Health and Wellbeing initiative get underway. So, um, I'm thinking that for all the principals and assistant principals out there who may need a little bit of help, they may need a bit of support or they just want someone to give them a bit of advice. What do they do? Where do they go?

D: Well, you're right.  Yeah. They've actually only this week, just advertised for assistant principals to actually take up a mentoring program. So that's a positive. Uh, a positive thing, but what a pity we had to lose a fabulous educator who was going through difficult times within the system. The principal role is a very, very lonely role. And it's one that we do because we love it. You're not told about the workload and waking up at six o'clock in the morning and going to bed at 10 o'clock at night, 16 hours of headspace is devoted to your profession and you've only got eight hours to reset. So if you can have a mentor and the Education Department is certainly putting a lot more funds through Bastow, which will be, um, as we know the new name, the Victorian Academy of Teaching and Leadership. So if any inspiring leader wants to have a mentor or to do any of their health and wellbeing courses, they apply to the Academy. And they go through that.

L: And just to finish off, I'd like to say thank you very much. We've gained great insight into you, into your personality, into your role as a mentor. You're no nonsense approach. And I think that's what we love about you. You tell it like it is, and I have no doubt that your mentees gain a great deal from working with you. So thanks again. I wish you all the best. Oh, look just before we sign off, tell us a little bit about your book.

D: Oh, my book. Uh, I hope, I hope for it to be out next year. Uh, it's about sharing and imparting all the tools, tips, and tricks of the trade. Um, you know, the old mother Hubbard routine, you've got to go into a meeting and you've got absolutely nothing in the tank. What are you going to do then? The wise old owl, our routine working with quirky people. What's the purpose? You know, how do we go about developing our purpose? How optimistic or have to attend an interview. What do teachers look for? What do principals look for? So they're just little, sort of little quirky tips that will you be able to pick up and read and gives you a little bit more of an insight into teaching and what it's like to be a leader. So I'm hoping that to be out sometime next year.

L: I've got to ask you though. What made you write a book?

D: I’ve been dying to write this book for years.  Uh, really it's, well, if you're not going to impart, where are people going to pick up and you like to be able to pick up a one on one book? It’s like a one stop cookbook. Um, but I've always wanted to do something I've just never had the time Loretta I've had the passion. But I just have never had the time. And now when I'm giving back in mentoring and I'm hearing and seeing what the mentees need, I'm thinking, gee, if they're just little tips that they should, that they need to pick up. And if they did pick up those little tips, gee, it would make their life a lot more easier and less stressful.

L: Well, thank you got to hand it to you. You've got an incredible amount of energy and passion, so thank you very much, Deb wishing you all the best. I can't wait to get my hands on that book.

D: And Loretta, I'd love to say thank you to you. You also were an educator and are an educator that gives so much. So much back to the profession and you are also successful in what you do.

Thanks for listening to this latest episode of talking out of school, where we cover topics and dilemmas associated with the ups and downs, and even the downright curious of the school leaders job. Want to know more then visit me at www.shapingleaders.com.au

But for now here’s to staying ahead of the game.